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Parasurama
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11-19-2008, 10:38 PM
Post subject: Top pair, medium kicker facing pot-sized donkbet on flop
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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Hi everyone, I've been reading the forum for a while, just made an account.
Villain is 32/7/1 (it's VPIP/PFraise%/AF right?? I've always wondered) over 85 hands, I didn't use this information when I played the hand. He was playing loose-passive in the few hands I had seen on that table though.
Full Tilt Poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
BB: $325.90
UTG: $61.70
UTG+1: $248.10
Hero (MP1): $196.05
MP2: $65.15
CO: $56.50
BTN: $30.80
SB: $82.95
Pre-Flop: J A dealt to Hero (MP1)
2 folds, Hero raises to $3.50, 3 folds, SB calls $3, BB folds
Flop: ($8) 6 A 9 (2 Players)
SB bets $8, Hero ??
Here are my thoughts:
This bet sort of froze me. Donkbetting always makes me do a double-take. It seems to disrupt the flow of a hand and never seems standard. I feel like it's much more common and useful in multi-way pots, where the pre-flop raiser is less likely to c-bet.
What, in your experience, does a bet like this usually mean? How would you proceed? Thoughts on pre-flop are also appreciated. My estimation of villain's range here is AK, AQ, AJ, weaker aces, 66, 99, flush draws, and combo draws, i.e. 7h8h. I think the sets are less likely since he'd probably try a check-raise with an A on the flop. I think the weaker aces are more likely since my first instinct was that this was a probing bet. Am I giving him too much credit? I can't believe he would donkbet bluff on this flop often. My first inclination was to raise about 3x his bet to show him some strength and also find out how strong he is.
Thanks.
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aka_red
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Moderator
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pokerstove
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[11:11] <+bikes> bitches love your face
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
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if in doubt....hit the raise button
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
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reDZill4, is it possible to add weight to different portions of a range in pokerstove? I guess my question was whether or not my estimation of his range is accurate in a spot like this.
Miffed, I raised to $22, he called, and we ended up checking it down on a 2 3 turn and river. He had AQ. My raise probably ended up saving me a little money. Is there a case for betting the turn after he b/c the flop and checks the turn? I was going for pot control. On the river I didn't think repping a flush against this player was profitable, but I was reasonably certain he would have led out if he had a flush, so can I value bet knowing that he won't raise? I really just wanted to show it down so I checked behind.
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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His pot size donk bet is definitely not bluffing given his passive AF. Our hand is good enough to see his turn action. So i flat call and reevaluate on the turn by using my position.
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Parasurama
Miffed, I raised to $22, he called, and we ended up checking it down on a 2 3 turn and river. |
i dont like your flop raise at all given that you have position on him and backdoor nuts flush draw. In my experience, when some passive guys pot donk into pfr, we should probably go pot control from flop on and fold to his big turn bet.
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aka_red
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: house
Posts: 903
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Parasurama
reDZill4, is it possible to add weight to different portions of a range in pokerstove? I guess my question was whether or not my estimation of his range is accurate in a spot like this.
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unfortunately not but what you can do is add only x combos of a certain hand for example if you think he only plays AK like this half the time u can only put in AK with like a club so Ac Kd/h/s/c or Ac/d/h/s Kc. any other pokerstovepros know a better way?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
if in doubt....hit the raise button
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worst advice ever.
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[11:11] <+bikes> bitches love your face
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Deanglow
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2007
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call every street, don't raise unless you hit a jack imo
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
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I want to fold, if I called the flop, I'd acknowledge it as a spew.
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Deanglow
call every street, don't raise even if you hit a jack imo
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
I want to fold, if I called the flop, I'd acknowledge it as a spew.
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you can fold like a5o or something, but AJ is too strong, and AcJc is even better
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
I want to fold, if I called the flop, I'd acknowledge it as a spew.
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you can fold like a5o or something, but AJ is too strong, and AcJc is even better |
villains approx range?
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
I want to fold, if I called the flop, I'd acknowledge it as a spew.
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you can fold like a5o or something, but AJ is too strong, and AcJc is even better |
villains approx range? |
incredibly wide without reads
could be any ace he called with pre, could be air, could be second pair, could be a set (very unlikely due to there only being 4 combinations and the fact that he prob expects us to bet this every time)
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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oh yeah, or a fd
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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pokerfan, I didn't want to just call and face another bet on the turn without additional info. He could continue betting a flush draw and I would hate to call the flop and fold the turn against an unmade draw. I guess if I'm auto-folding to a reasonable bet on a non turn it isn't a bad idea to just call.
Deanglow, I hate calling every street when I'm the pre-flop raiser, but it might be the right thing to do in this spot, depending on his bet sizes. If he keeps betting pot, calling would be spew imo. If I had called the flop, I would have raised had I hit a J but not the J
a500lbgorilla, I really wanted to fold, but I just couldn't based on some of the other things people have said. Somehow I feel that a pot sized donk in a heads-up pot with an A on the flop is so rare to see that I wouldn't be losing much equity (if I had any) by folding. I agree with you the most so far.
Renton, I agree that sets are very unlikely for the same reason you stated, so why not raise if I hit a J? Because I'm not getting called by worse? Or is it because I would have to raise sometimes even without hitting the J to balance my range?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
oh yeah, or a fd
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The size of the bet makes me think that flush draws are less likely but combo draws are more likely. I've seen a lot of min-donkbets with flush draws, but people want to get it in with combo draws.
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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Oh yeah, reDZill4, thanks for the pokerstove advice, I literally thought of that right after I posted
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Deanglow
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Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: lol
Posts: 2,443
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Call down because his range is mostly nothing. Raise on the river if you hit non-heart jack for value. I'm never folding the flop, usually not the turn depending on size/timing.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Parasurama
reDZill4, is it possible to add weight to different portions of a range in pokerstove? I guess my question was whether or not my estimation of his range is accurate in a spot like this.
Miffed, I raised to $22, he called, and we ended up checking it down on a 2 3 turn and river. He had AQ. My raise probably ended up saving me a little money. Is there a case for betting the turn after he b/c the flop and checks the turn? I was going for pot control. On the river I didn't think repping a flush against this player was profitable, but I was reasonably certain he would have led out if he had a flush, so can I value bet knowing that he won't raise? I really just wanted to show it down so I checked behind. |
Agreed in this hand you saved 'some' money, but if we have set/oesd which we do a lot here i think your default play is to raise as you would then be doing that with flopped draw/set and tp but playing the big money streets much differently.
Also, if hes attached to AQ on this flop you get a nice value bet on the river from him lots, probably a pot sized one.
IMO just because you raised the flop does'nt mean you did not control the pot size; in fact you did, because it cost you $22 to get to showdown. Any other line costs you more.
If you are going to play a big pot you bet the turn - both of you are then committed, if you dont you check behind and call nearly 100% of river bets
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by reDZill4
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Parasurama
reDZill4, is it possible to add weight to different portions of a range in pokerstove? I guess my question was whether or not my estimation of his range is accurate in a spot like this.
|
unfortunately not but what you can do is add only x combos of a certain hand for example if you think he only plays AK like this half the time u can only put in AK with like a club so Ac Kd/h/s/c or Ac/d/h/s Kc. any other pokerstovepros know a better way?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
if in doubt....hit the raise button
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worst advice ever. |
calling the flop. just gets us donked into on the turn as well. What are you going to do with AK in the same spot vs the same action?
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Parasurama
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: DMT
Posts: 820
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
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Originally Posted by reDZill4
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Parasurama
reDZill4, is it possible to add weight to different portions of a range in pokerstove? I guess my question was whether or not my estimation of his range is accurate in a spot like this.
|
unfortunately not but what you can do is add only x combos of a certain hand for example if you think he only plays AK like this half the time u can only put in AK with like a club so Ac Kd/h/s/c or Ac/d/h/s Kc. any other pokerstovepros know a better way?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
if in doubt....hit the raise button
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worst advice ever. |
calling the flop. just gets us donked into on the turn as well. What are you going to do with AK in the same spot vs the same action? |
I don't think he was talking about this hand in particular, he was just saying that this is bad advice in general. Fwiw, I think that it's good advice for people who know how to apply it correctly but could probably get some people into questionable spots if they follow it dogmatically.
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grindinginnj
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Grinding In New Jersey!!
Posts: 143
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Flat call flop, see what he does on turn. hope to check it down call small bets. big hand big pot small hand small pot
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Stackin chips and rippin lips!!
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