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Chopper

08-29-2007, 06:11 PM Post subject: too big a nit?

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

assume no reads... i'll explain later. table was relatively loose, though. several calling raises rather liberally.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($7.95)
Hero ($9.25)
BB ($1.70)
UTG ($20.80)
MP ($9.50)
CO ($5.30)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q

, Q

.
1 fold, MP calls $0.10, CO calls $0.10, Button calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.5, 1 fold, MP calls $0.40, CO calls $0.40, Button calls $0.40.

Flop: ($2.10) 4

, J

, 9

(4 players)
Hero bets $1.5, MP raises to $3, CO calls $3, Button folds, Hero folds!!

isnt the order of best EV decisions, 1) push over, 2) fold, 3) call. with call being BY FAR the worst?

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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sarbox68

08-29-2007, 08:54 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: wondering where the 3 extra chairs at my 6max table came from

Posts: 871

Keep in mind that this is coming from the guy who continues to struggle w/ overpairs... so this is more me thinking out loud to myself than giving advice....

1) You're either ahead here, or with 2 outs to meaningfully improve.
2) I would see AA-99 in MPs range, all of which put you seriously behind except TT. AK/AKo you beat for now and KQ is possible for the inside draw, but unlikely w/ you sitting on two of the queens. And 44 for the other made set.
3) Don't know what CO is doing unless he's sitting on a made hand. He's almost all in after this call and sandwiched between MP and your possible RR.

You know me... I don't like my QQ much when I'm not HU, I'm raised on the Flop and some pretty likely two pair and set possibilities on the board. I can't imagine just calling... so either push or fold and I'm a-folding...

...but I'm a-also not that good....

spoonitnow

08-29-2007, 09:03 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

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Posts: 5,406

1. Raise more preflop. There are three limpers in, so I prefer at least a raise to $0.70 here, although with the description of the table that you gave, I might make it $0.80-1.00.

2. Fold on the flop with that action is by far most -EV play, imo. You're ahead most of the time here I think. I mean seriously, wtf would you want to call or push here?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ripptyde

I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.

Rule # 1: don't ask questions

Rule # 2: don't ask questions

I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.

Dashi

08-29-2007, 11:59 PM

#4 (permalink)

Join Date: Aug 2007

Posts: 46

I think the pre-flop raise was ok here however higher would be fine too considering the table.

Post-flop I see this as an easy push most of the time with at least a call. Keep in mind you have classified this as a loose table, I don't see how you can call it loose, but at the same time assume they have an overpair beat. Your supposed to lose money when a set flops to your overpair.

Chopper

08-30-2007, 12:42 AM

#5 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

believe it or not, i posted this with you in mind, sarbox.

spoon, i dont raise over $0.60 at a 10NL table. it tends to fold off everyone. and since i dont do it with AK, TT, etc, i am not doing it with QQ+...too much of a tipoff.

guys, i dont like the call here for two reasons. 1) it does NOTHING to gain more information in a hand where we desperately need it oop. it does nothing to establish initiative for any future betting on later streets. its too "trappy" in a situation we could be WAY behind. and, we are either wa/wb here. if we feel way ahead, we call and hope no overcards/connectivity fall...clearly a gamble. 2) you do nothing to put any overcards to the test. if you only call, and an A or K fall on the turn, now what? how do you know where you are now?

anyway, i'll get to the rest in a bit.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

djzcko

08-30-2007, 12:57 AM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 285

You give villains too much credit. I play $50nl and they still don't have a clue on how to play. What makes you think they are paying attention enough to know if you raise .60 that it would be QQ+? Raise more pf, jam the flop, allin on turn. Folding is the worst option IMO.

mixchange

08-30-2007, 12:59 AM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2006

Location: San Francisco, CA

Posts: 1,665

he makes that minraise with a huge range of hands, pop it to $10 and see what happens.

bode

08-30-2007, 01:03 AM

#8 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2006

Location: slow motion

Posts: 4,270

bode is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

he makes that minraise with a huge range of hands, pop it to $10 and see what happens.

Quote:

eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.

Chopper

08-30-2007, 01:43 AM

#9 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

allright, we have enough interest for the rest.

i know you are assuming "no reads," but lets say you HAVE a read.

-over 50ish hands at the table (to answer a previous question about "how can you classify the table as loose?"...the table was 53% vpip with villain playing over 75% of hands, the guy behind him playing 40ish%, and another playing over a third of his hands...thats a loose table in 6max, yes? thats why i said it was "loose w/ players calling raises.").
- i have "tangled" w/ MP 3 times. all minraised in big pots, excepet here where he hit me on the flop (for a second, i thought he was playing me from previous hands, but I DONT WANT TO GIVE A LOT OF CREDIT TO A 10NL PLAYER, DO I?) in the first hand, i hit top two on the flop, villain pulls the "c/call, c/call, c/minraise river" line when the flop had 2 diamonds, and the 3rd hit the river. in the second hand, he did it to me on a 4-straight when i had TPTK. i was getting pissed, but never saw his cards. he started showing numbers through PT of 85/2/.4 with a SD% of 45+%. now, you tell me your "read" now when he minraises you? i saw him show absolutely NO aggression when he had AKs UTG and neglected to open raise the pot, hit TPTK on a rather dry board, and checked it down three streets to the smallest pot i have ever seen an AK win.

believe me, i wanted to shove over this prick with an overpair so bad it was killing me. but, i had seen one showdown out of him where he had shown NO aggression when he should have, he had an AF of .4, and was extremely loose both pre and post flop. there was no flush draw for him to chase, yet, he minraised me on the flop...ITS A SET. everytime.

i neglected the read to see if it was a shove. i still dont like the call, but i dont fold here w/o a "decent" read, which i had, and didnt share. sorry for the "setup," but i knew that if i shared the read, you all would recommend to fold...i just wanted to know if it is usually a shove over.

btw, i respect all of your opinions. this wasnt meant maliciously at all.

heres the rest of the hand...check out the horrible line they put on each other.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($7.95)
Hero ($9.25)
BB ($1.70)
UTG ($20.80)
MP ($9.50)
CO ($5.30)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q

, Q

.
1 fold, MP calls $0.10, CO calls $0.10, Button calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.5, 1 fold, MP calls $0.40, CO calls $0.40, Button calls $0.40.

Flop: ($2.10) 4

, J

, 9

(4 players)
Hero bets $1.5, MP raises to $3, CO calls $3, Button folds, Hero folds.

Turn: ($9.60) 8

(2 players)
MP checks, CO checks.

River: ($9.60) 8

(2 players)
MP bets $0.1, CO raises to $0.6, MP calls $0.50.

Final Pot: $10.80

edit: converter line removed...due to me being a dumbass and trying to convert an already converted hand...

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

bode

08-30-2007, 01:52 AM

#10 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2006

Location: slow motion

Posts: 4,270

results?

Quote:

eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.

Chopper

08-30-2007, 02:11 AM

#11 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bode-ist

results?

sorry. didnt think it converted at all; therefore, thought the results were in there.

MP had 44, for the set/boat.
shorty had KJ for TP/2P.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

spoonitnow

08-30-2007, 07:31 PM

#12 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: IRC Chat Room

Posts: 5,406

you're thinking about 10nl way too fucking hard imo

djzcko

08-30-2007, 07:59 PM

#13 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 285

Yes, you are a nit.

martindcx1e

08-30-2007, 08:40 PM

#14 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 3,614

I think calling is bad. Top pair could easily make this raise. It seems like you are destined to go broke here if someone has you beat since any real raise commits you. Just push imo. This is a sucky spot to be in but oh well.

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

Chopper

08-31-2007, 01:10 AM

#15 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by djzcko

Yes, you are a nit.

a nit that kills the 10's. i know thats like bragging about a 2 inch dick, but its all i got right now...lol.

over the last 12k, i am carrying a 24/100. over 45k, i got a 12/100. theres absolutely NO floating at the 10's. at least, not like at 25 and 50.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

martindcx1e

08-31-2007, 02:30 AM

#16 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 3,614

chopper, what's the point of this? if you have a read then post the read. don't post a hand with partial info and then talk about how great your decision was because you had a read that none of us know about and then brag about how easy the game is. i don't believe you posted this hh to get advice.

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

Miffed22001

08-31-2007, 02:36 AM

#17 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!

Posts: 8,181

on this flop i might 3bet and fold to a push but that gets us locked in the hand.
To be honest, id think about what i think of my opp, consider the board and then make a play.

Before i saw the results below i thought of calling flop, then check/bombing turn but then the turn was a scary card.
Take it as you will.

Chopper

08-31-2007, 05:48 AM

#18 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

i run into this situation a lot...when i dont have a read. thats why i left it out. it WAS to get advice about the "general play." then, to show that generalities are not always correct. some of us would like to form a "baseline" of general situations to start with before including our reads...if we have any other than PT stats.

had i put the read in, i wouldnt have learned a thing...about the situation, as its an easy fold.

as it stands, i receive some confirmation of what to do w/o a read w/ an overpair when donked into.

as much as you would like to think you are, you are not in my head. and if you decide to call me to the mat, please do it in your first response. dont come back to thump me later.

btw, i actually agreed with your post the most. i, too, thought a call was horrible. and, originally wanted to know if my order of choices was on target.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Miffed22001

08-31-2007, 05:56 AM

#19 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!

Posts: 8,181

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

most situations have 'standard' plays associated with them. Sure, we shouldnt juts go by HUD stats but most of these hands have 2 or 3 lines that you should always be looking to use.
The complexities arise when you turn with a hand you arent supposed to have (implied odds, raising 32s UTG for example) or when you take different lines to get the money in.

Having said that, you should mostly be standard in all hands in most small stakes games becuase your opps wont even remember the last hand they played, never mind the last hand you played.

martindcx1e

08-31-2007, 06:29 AM

#20 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 3,614

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

as much as you would like to think you are, you are not in my head. and if you decide to call me to the mat, please do it in your first response. dont come back to thump me later.

LOL what?

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

djzcko

08-31-2007, 02:47 PM

#21 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 285

Obv, if you had reads then that changes the hand. Without reads, it's standard for me to push in that situation. If somebody hits their set on me with an overpair then GG...

mixchange

08-31-2007, 05:57 PM

#22 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2006

Location: San Francisco, CA

Posts: 1,665

let's just settle this and agree that you are nutcamping, lifesucking nit.

martindcx1e

08-31-2007, 07:48 PM

#23 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 3,614

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixchange

let's just settle this and agree that you are nutcamping, lifesucking nit.

not that there's anything wrong with that

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

Pelion

08-31-2007, 08:57 PM Post subject: Re: too big a nit?

#24 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 3,206

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

he showed...QQ...he said he was afraid i had AA. i said, "who are you, jennifer tilly?"

gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.

bigspenda73: But how much did you win?

Chopper

08-31-2007, 09:10 PM

#25 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by djzcko

Without reads, it's standard for me to push in that situation. If somebody hits their set on me with an overpair then GG...

this is all i was asking for. one of the follow-ups may have been overzealous.

but, i prefaced in the OP..."assume no reads...I'LL EXPLAIN LATER."

i told all of you something else about the hand was coming. why are you all so steamed? its not like i didnt disclose that i wasnt sharing ALL the information.

and, i all but apologized for the "set-up," in fact, i did apologize.

Quote:

i know you are assuming "no reads,"

and...

Quote:

i neglected the read to see if it was a shove...sorry for the "setup," but i knew that if i shared the read, you all would recommend to fold.

and, i even said that i didnt mean to piss anyone off. why all the pissiness? and you guys say I can be "thin-skinned."

i am lost as to why anyone is upset/peeved. i disclosed everything up front and along the way because i knew if i didnt, people would actually have a reason to be angry/jaded.

btw, cute one, pel

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

martindcx1e

08-31-2007, 09:48 PM

#26 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 3,614

we're not mad at you man. everybody just cool out...COOL OUT!

Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.

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