Poker Forum

Over 1,247,000 Posts!

REGISTER
Subscribe to FTR web feed
Already Registered?      Username:    Password:   Remember      Forgot Password

Poker Forum

  > 

Full Ring NL Hold'em

  > 

Is it time to lay this down?

  
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
GatorJH
Old 05-02-2006, 10:56 PM     Post subject: Is it time to lay this down? #1 (permalink)  
GatorJH's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
GatorJH will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to GatorJH
What hands do you put villian on and do you lay this down at this point?
Secondly, would you have played this any differently to get to this point?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($43.65)
UTG+1 ($46.75)
MP1 ($34.80)
MP2 ($62.80)
Hero ($33.85)
Button ($51.25)
SB ($30.25)
BB ($91.40)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A, Q.
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.50, MP2 calls $0.50, Hero raises to $2, 3 folds, MP1 calls $1.50, MP2 folds.

Flop: ($5.25) J, A, 4 (2 players)

MP1 bets $3.50, Hero raises $5.50 to $9, MP1 raises $5.50 to $14.50
Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
 
Reply With Quote

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
bair
Old 05-03-2006, 12:24 AM #2 (permalink)  
bair's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 953
bair
i push, i dont think 44 3-bets this flop and AJ probably raises pf, poker tracker stats would help. i have him on AT or a flush draw
Reply With Quote
GatorJH
Old 05-03-2006, 12:48 AM #3 (permalink)  
GatorJH's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
GatorJH will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to GatorJH
Quote:
Originally Posted by bair
i push, i dont think 44 3-bets this flop and AJ probably raises pf, poker tracker stats would help. i have him on AT or a flush draw
Villian had only been at the table for 8 hands, but had played just about every hand and was somewhat aggressive. Below are a couple of the hands he had played.

Hand 1
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($45.90)
BB ($49.50)
UTG =#A500AF(Villian)/ ($49.50)
UTG+1 ($59.50)
Hero ($35.10)
MP2 ($52)
CO ($48.60)
Button ($67.55)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 5, T.
UTG =#A500AF(Villian)/ raises to $1.5, 3 folds, CO calls $1.50, Button calls $1.50, 2 folds.

Flop: ($5.25) T, 6, Q (3 players)
Villian bets $4.5, CO calls $4.50, Button folds.

Turn: ($14.25) 3 (2 players)
Villian bets $9, CO calls $9.

River: ($32.25) 9 (2 players)
Villian checks, CO bets $28, Villian folds.

Final Pot: $60.25

Hand 2
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($45.65)
Button ($48.75)
SB =#A500AF(Villian)/ ($50)
BB ($64.30)
Hero ($35.10)
UTG+1 ($52)
MP1 ($59.80)
MP2 ($66.05)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7, J.
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.50, 2 folds, SB =#A500AF(Villian)/ raises to $1.5, 1 fold, MP2 calls $1.

Flop: ($3.50) 4, 8, Q (2 players)
Villian bets $3, MP2 raises to $9, Villian calls $6.

Turn: ($21.50) 3 (2 players)
Villian checks, MP2 bets $11, Villian calls $11.

River: ($43.50) 4 (2 players)
Villian checks, MP2 bets $30, Villian folds.

Final Pot: $73.50


The big difference is that in the above hands he was not driving any action, just coming along (till the river on one hand). Does the fact that he is re-raising on the flop make you believe he has a made hand this time?
Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
 
Reply With Quote
Warpe
Old 05-03-2006, 01:01 AM #4 (permalink)  
Warpe's Avatar
Moderator

Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
Warpe is a jewel in the roughWarpe is a jewel in the roughWarpe is a jewel in the roughWarpe is a jewel in the rough
 I don't think AJ necessarily raises p/f here.



 
Reply With Quote
samsonite2100
Old 05-03-2006, 01:57 AM #5 (permalink)  
samsonite2100's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Your loosing, lolololololololololol
Posts: 858
samsonite2100
AJ or 44?

As a sidebar, I like raising the pot in here PF, so more like $2.75-3.
 
Reply With Quote
bair
Old 05-03-2006, 05:17 AM #6 (permalink)  
bair's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 953
bair
hand 1 makes me think aj is in his pf raise range, i still push...did you get to see his hand?
Reply With Quote
Lodogg
Old 05-03-2006, 05:23 AM #7 (permalink)  
Lodogg's Avatar
Straight

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Stealing your C-bet
Posts: 199
Lodogg
Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonite2100
AJ or 44?

As a sidebar, I like raising the pot in here PF, so more like $2.75-3.
I agree with this...$2 is not enough at NL50. I might be passive in this position and lay it down. Keep in mind that this is not the last street you will probably have to bet on. How far do you want to go with TP good kicker? There are a lot of hands that are ahead, and I think there are much better spots to push.
Reply With Quote
GatorJH
Old 05-03-2006, 12:59 PM #8 (permalink)  
GatorJH's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
GatorJH will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to GatorJH
Quote:
Originally Posted by bair
hand 1 makes me think aj is in his pf raise range, i still push...did you get to see his hand?
Whta range could you put him on here?

BTW, yes I did get to see his hand and will post the turn later today.
Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
 
Reply With Quote
GatorJH
Old 05-03-2006, 01:03 PM #9 (permalink)  
GatorJH's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
GatorJH will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to GatorJH
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lodogg
Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonite2100
AJ or 44?

As a sidebar, I like raising the pot in here PF, so more like $2.75-3.
I agree with this...$2 is not enough at NL50. I might be passive in this position and lay it down. Keep in mind that this is not the last street you will probably have to bet on. How far do you want to go with TP good kicker? There are a lot of hands that are ahead, and I think there are much better spots to push.
Good points, especially pre-flop (yours and Samsonite's). One of the reasons I posted this was because I am typically VERY patient against aggressive players however this hand is borderline on one that I would go with against someone with a wide range of starting hands.

Based on the limited info we have on villian what starting range would you put him on and how does that range narrow based on his flop play (versus his play in the other two hands I posted)?
Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
 
Reply With Quote
GatorJH
Old 05-03-2006, 01:07 PM #10 (permalink)  
GatorJH's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
GatorJH will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to GatorJH
Below is the range of hands that I put villian on pre-flop:

2's - 9's (I think he would raise on any pair higher than 9's)
Axs - X could be any card as players like this love to chase flushes
Connectors from 67 - JQ
A8 - AJ
K9 - KJ

Is this a reasonable range or should it be wider?
Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
 
Reply With Quote
samsonite2100
Old 05-03-2006, 01:14 PM #11 (permalink)  
samsonite2100's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Your loosing, lolololololololololol
Posts: 858
samsonite2100
I don't think we're capable of putting him on much of a range from the other two hands. What we do know is he's a probably chronic TP?K caller-downer who chickens out on the river--although the second hand he could've been on a straight draw. When a player like this 3bets the flop, you're screwed.

Gator, did you read Aok's recent post on playing TP. I think it's in the beginner's forum. Basically he says that, as a rule of thumb, most of the time when you have TPTK and you get reraised, you know you're beat. I've found it to be extraordinarily accurate advice so far.
 
Reply With Quote
GatorJH
Old 05-03-2006, 01:53 PM #12 (permalink)  
GatorJH's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
GatorJH will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to GatorJH
Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonite2100
I don't think we're capable of putting him on much of a range from the other two hands. What we do know is he's a probably chronic TP?K caller-downer who chickens out on the river--although the second hand he could've been on a straight draw. When a player like this 3bets the flop, you're screwed.

Gator, did you read Aok's recent post on playing TP. I think it's in the beginner's forum. Basically he says that, as a rule of thumb, most of the time when you have TPTK and you get reraised, you know you're beat. I've found it to be extraordinarily accurate advice so far.
I haven't read that post, but have realized that as well and now try to play under the "It's only a pair damnit" theory.

On the other hand I can't count on both hands and feet the number of times I have been re-raised with TPTK or TPGK only to fold and have villian end up with a weaker kicker or pair. I guess that goes to the point that a bad laydown is much less costlier than a bad call.
Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
 
Reply With Quote
samsonite2100
Old 05-03-2006, 05:08 PM #13 (permalink)  
samsonite2100's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Your loosing, lolololololololololol
Posts: 858
samsonite2100
Quote:
I guess that goes to the point that a bad laydown is much less costlier than a bad call.
QFT. I think when you get to the higher levels, it becomes much more important to be able to win with hands like TPGK in marginal situations. So much of the money at 50NL is won and lost due to players being incapable of folding top and even middle pair, I don't think laying down in situations like this gives up all that much value. As Lodogg said, you're avoiding a potentially costly and very marginal hand, in favor of one of the multitude of times where people effectively hand you their stack.
 
Reply With Quote
relayer
Old 05-03-2006, 06:12 PM #14 (permalink)  

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 68
relayer
Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonite2100
Quote:
I guess that goes to the point that a bad laydown is much less costlier than a bad call.
QFT. I think when you get to the higher levels, it becomes much more important to be able to win with hands like TPGK in marginal situations. So much of the money at 50NL is won and lost due to players being incapable of folding top and even middle pair, I don't think laying down in situations like this gives up all that much value. As Lodogg said, you're avoiding a potentially costly and very marginal hand, in favor of one of the multitude of times where people effectively hand you their stack.
Yeah, it only took me about 12,000 hands to figure out this very basic, and important, concept.

Well, at least I got it eventually...
Reply With Quote
GatorJH
Old 05-03-2006, 07:14 PM #15 (permalink)  
GatorJH's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
GatorJH will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to GatorJH
Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonite2100
Quote:
I guess that goes to the point that a bad laydown is much less costlier than a bad call.
QFT. I think when you get to the higher levels, it becomes much more important to be able to win with hands like TPGK in marginal situations. So much of the money at 50NL is won and lost due to players being incapable of folding top and even middle pair, I don't think laying down in situations like this gives up all that much value. As Lodogg said, you're avoiding a potentially costly and very marginal hand, in favor of one of the multitude of times where people effectively hand you their stack.
Well said, I guess I am getting better at this as now I notice when it happens. Thanks for the input.
Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
 
Reply With Quote
bair
Old 05-03-2006, 11:49 PM #16 (permalink)  
bair's Avatar
Full House

Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 953
bair
results?
Reply With Quote
GatorJH
Old 05-04-2006, 12:28 PM #17 (permalink)  
GatorJH's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
GatorJH will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to GatorJH
Quote:
Originally Posted by bair
results?
Ended up with all of my chips in the middle and he flipped over 44.

Buh Bye and thanks for playing.

Thanks for all of the comments everyone.
Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
 
Reply With Quote
Lukie
Old 05-04-2006, 04:21 PM #18 (permalink)  
Lukie's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
Lukie is on a distinguished road
 lol he min reraised you after you raised preflop and raised his flop lead on a really scary board.

what did you expect he would have?
Reply With Quote
GatorJH
Old 05-04-2006, 06:21 PM #19 (permalink)  
GatorJH's Avatar
4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: HotLanta
Posts: 3,179
GatorJH will become famous soon enough
Send a message via AIM to GatorJH
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
lol he min reraised you after you raised preflop and raised his flop lead on a really scary board.

what did you expect he would have?
After my moment of idiotic bliss passed I knew he would flip over one of 3 hands - AJ, JJ or 44 (with JJ being not as apparent as the other two).
Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
 
Reply With Quote
Reply
Latest Poker News
KoRnholio Old 05-26-2012, 03:08 PM    Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ...

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »
Thread Tools
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:38 AM.

Contact Us - Archive - Top

FTR Testimonials

All content
© FlopTurnRiver.com 		Advertising  |   Partners  |   Testimonials  |   T&C  |   Contact Us  |   FTR News & Press  |   Site Map  |   Search FTR

Full Tilt  |   Titan Poker  |   UltimateBet  |   Poker Stars  |   Ladbrokes Bonus  |   Sportsbook  |   Cake Poker  

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum
This is not a gambling website.