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Are These Marginal or am I a Donkey?

  
 
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Genitruc
Old 05-21-2006, 10:03 PM     Post subject: Are These Marginal or am I a Donkey? #1 (permalink)  
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 2 hands happened almost back to back on same table. Was 5-tabling, had no spectacular reads on villains.

Hand 1 :

----------------------------------------------------------------------


Game # 334769689 - Texas Hold'em No Limit EUR 0,50/1,00 - Table "Barcelona"
Game ended 2006-05-21 23:45:25 GMT+01:00

Players:
Gamos (EUR 80,85 in seat 1)
Ms__Finchy (EUR 60,30 in seat 2)
Tikk (EUR 86,10 in seat 3)
AA_flugan (EUR 139,25 in seat 4)
pigtails (EUR 106,95 in seat 5)
_kingkai_ (EUR 86,00 in seat 6)
Kishikawa (EUR 125,60 in seat 7)
Henitruk3 (EUR 107,35 in seat 8)

Dealer: Ms__Finchy
Small Blind: Tikk (0,50)
Big Blind: AA_flugan (1,00)

Henitruk3 was dealt: Qd - Qs

pigtails Fold
_kingkai_ Fold
Kishikawa Fold
Henitruk3 Raise (3,50)
Gamos Fold
Ms__Finchy Fold
Tikk Fold
AA_flugan Call (2,50)

Flop 5s - 9d - 6s

AA_flugan Check
Henitruk3 Bet (5,00)
AA_flugan Call (5,00)

Turn 5s - 9d - 6s - Th

AA_flugan Check
Henitruk3 Bet (15,00)
AA_flugan Call (15,00)

River 5s - 9d - 6s - Th - 2d

AA_flugan Check
Henitruk3 Value-bet? Or check? How often will a random opponent check this river with a hand that beats QQ?


Hand 2 :
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Game # 334773565 - Texas Hold'em No Limit EUR 0,50/1,00 - Table "Barcelona"
Game ended 2006-05-21 23:50:31 GMT+01:00

Players:
Gamos (EUR 80,85 in seat 1)
Ms__Finchy (EUR 60,30 in seat 2)
Tikk (EUR 74,60 in seat 3)
AA_flugan (EUR 172,25 in seat 4)
pigtails (EUR 136,80 in seat 5)
_kingkai_ (EUR 76,00 in seat 6)
Kishikawa (EUR 123,10 in seat 7)
Henitruk3 (EUR 62,85 in seat 8)

Dealer: Kishikawa
Small Blind: Henitruk3 (0,50)
Big Blind: Gamos (1,00)

Henitruk3 was dealt: 3h - 8h

Ms__Finchy Fold
Tikk Fold
AA_flugan Fold
pigtails Fold
_kingkai_ Fold
Kishikawa Fold
Henitruk3 Call (0,50)
Gamos Check

Flop 4h - Ah - Ac

Henitruk3 Bet (1,50)
Gamos Call (1,50)

Turn 4h - Ah - Ac - Qh

Henitruk3 Bet (3,00)
Gamos Raise (12,00)
Henitruk3 Call (9,00)

River 4h - Ah - Ac - Qh - Tc

Henitruk3 Check
Gamos All-In (66,35)

Is this a fold? I don't see why he would check an ace in BB... MAYBE he could have underfull, but seems to me most likely hand that beats me is better flush.

Call or fold?
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samsonite2100
Old 05-21-2006, 10:33 PM #2 (permalink)  
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1) I'd make a smallish value bet here. I would say a random opponent doesn't usually check here with a better hand than QQ, although I've definitely seen two pair played passively like this. If you bet and get pushed over, you lay it down.

2) Dunno. That turn 4x bet is a little suspicious. I'm not sure a higher flush plays it that way. This line could definitely be in keeping with trip aces that got spooked by the heart draw and decided to start playing fast. Tough one. I think my answer is "I'm glad this wasn't my hand."
 
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WhooFleuryScores
Old 05-21-2006, 10:57 PM #3 (permalink)  
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First hand:River check is fine.

Second hand:Fold preflop.
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martindcx1e
Old 05-22-2006, 04:53 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhooFleuryScores
First hand:River check is fine.

Second hand:Fold preflop.
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Genitruc
Old 05-22-2006, 07:01 AM #5 (permalink)  
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 thx for replies and agreed calling preflop is weak and strange... I almost never limp sb, either steal or fold.

That being said, it doesn t help a whole lot to know that preflop fold is correct move. By the river, what do you do?
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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xX zorrito Xx
Old 05-22-2006, 12:33 PM #6 (permalink)  
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hand 1: i'd check the river for information and what he's calling your down with for future information... he's clearly cold calling here this entire time so it smells a bit fishy... T 9s is a possibility...

hand 2: this is a donkey play that got you into trouble and you must be prepared to suffer the consequences... you had no business in this flop with those cards unless you're on the button..
 
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badandy519
Old 05-22-2006, 12:56 PM #7 (permalink)  
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I don't hate the 8h3h call in the SB if you don't mind playing small pots out of position. After you get raised on the turn though, I think it's an easy fold. You are only drawing to a small flush, and he very easily could have limped a small ace hoping to trap you. You're drawing to an 8 high flush on a paired board... give it up on the turn raise and save yourself the $9 and a more difficult river decision.
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Genitruc
Old 05-22-2006, 08:32 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 ummmmmmmm.... zorrito thanx lol, like I said I almost never limp from sb, fold or steal is proper play. But please input would be nice on post flop action.

Badandy : I made my flush on turn. What happens now?
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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jackvance
Old 05-22-2006, 09:14 PM #9 (permalink)  
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 To the fold preflop people: let's say he had 7h8h, that would change nothing about the hand, and what would you do then?

I fold here - "standard" if they just had an ace, they bet instead of pushing. The push tells me high flush or boat.
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bigredhoss
Old 05-22-2006, 09:16 PM #10 (permalink)  
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hand 1 i like making a small value bet on river but check behind is fine too

hand 2 fold pf, fold river...you're only beating a bluff
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Genitruc
Old 05-22-2006, 10:30 PM #11 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1 was extremely marginal.

Hand 2 was horribly tough here's why :

-I have been extremely lagg preflop. The table has been responding very aggressively to any preflop weakness from me so far. Therefore, I can't put villain on a raising hand (i.e. A-x in position heads up) preflop.

-smooth call on flop tells me nothing. Ppl have been floating on me for the past few orbits.

-reraise on turn tells me villain has a hand he wants to protect. Now I am starting to wonder whether he might indeed have a bad ace. What are the only things I don't put him on at this point? A boat (he woud prob smooth call hoping I'd "hit my draw" on river) or a high flush. Why kill action with either of these hands heads up? So at this point, I am thinking I was wrong not to put him an any ace checking behind preflop and likely am up against trip aces. The other possibility is a low flush... But his reraise on the turn tells me one thing and one thing only : he doesn't have the stone cold nuts at this point. I have been playing hyper-aggressive and don't see why villain would want to kill his action with me betting into him.

-River push : now I am seriously confused. What would he try to push me off of on turn that merits a push on river? One typical B 2 B trick is for ppl to play their draws aggressively then push missed draws (Just ask EasyT ). I know have to consider pair + flushdraw on turn (like say Q + 9 of hearts )... It definitly doesn't make sense for him to push with trip aces though...

Meh. Tough hand for me.
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AHiltz
Old 05-22-2006, 10:50 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Second hand:Fold preflop.
If you have reason to believe that opp won't raise from the BB, then calling is ok here if you can play any sort of post flop game. You are getting 3:1 on your money and that is good heads up. That being said, I raise this.
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Miffed22001
Old 05-22-2006, 10:52 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 hand1 bet for value
hand 2 reraise or push the turn
its a blind battle, if hes showing that much strength then get the money in the pot.
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Genitruc
Old 05-23-2006, 02:08 AM #14 (permalink)  
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 K. Since I'm a newb posting in these forums I have a basic question for everyone : at what point is it best to post results of a hand? This is maybe a lame-obv question just based on judgement but is there an "ftr industry standard"? Don't wanna stifle debate bout a hand but don't wanna leave ppl hanging forever.

Then again, the results are prob irrelevant to debate, so maybe fuck results?
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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jackvance
Old 05-23-2006, 03:01 AM #15 (permalink)  
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 I think posting results is fine.. it nice to confirm suspicions etc. Just don't post results til you have gotten a few replies, otherwise you'll get a bunch result-based replies.
Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
 
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Genitruc
Old 05-23-2006, 05:46 AM #16 (permalink)  
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 Results :

-Hand 1 I value bet 20 €river, Villain calls and turns over 9-10 (NH ZORRITO)

-Hand 2 I call Villain turns over AQ??????? WTF LIMP AQ IN BB THEN RERAISE THE TURN WITH STONE-COLD NUTS???????

Nh tough situations when you're on a cold run.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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bair
Old 05-23-2006, 06:27 AM #17 (permalink)  
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hand 1: check, i would hate to be raised here, and i dont see anything calling with a weaker hand
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