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Knytestorme
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03-10-2007, 12:31 PM
Post subject: These decisions been kicking my ass lately
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 562
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Opponent is 70/7.7 over about 80 hands
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
saw flop|saw showdown
UTG+1 ($30.25)
MP1 ($47.30)
MP2 ($19.55)
CO ($30.10)
Button ($23.80)
SB ($20.85)
Hero ($37.10)
UTG ($4.65)
Preflop: Hero is BB with 4 , T .
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.25, 3 folds, Hero checks.
Flop: ($0.60) T, 7, 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.5, MP2 raises to $3, Hero ???
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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i wouldnt bet the flop, does that help?
fwiw, this is an easy fold the way you played it.
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Muzzard
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Cheshire, UK
Posts: 1,843
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He may be a loose player, but really there is no point of stacking off on TP crappy kicker. Sounds like he likes his hand a lot more than you like T4o in this spot.
Really it is dependent on your read and how often you think you are good in this spot. Personally, I think you are never good, you are beating NOTHING apart from a bluff, or a semi bluff draw.
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Knytestorme
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 562
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Yeah, I folded the flop after the reraise but these situations have been coming up a bit where I am in the BB for instance (since I wouldn't play that crap outside there  ) and I have hit top pair on the board with a crappy kicker.
Is it better to bet out into one or two opponents in this situation where even a pot sized bet is reasonably cheap and see if you're played back at, or let it pass and fold to a bet from opponents?
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griffey24
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Toronto'ish
Posts: 4,611
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[quote="Miffed22001"]i wouldnt bet the flop, does that help?
quote]
I think this could be one of my flaws, sine I definitely bet out in these spots, tryin to take down these small pots.
check/call or check fold?
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pokerroomace
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 783
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[quote="griffey24"][quote="Miffed22001"]i wouldnt bet the flop, does that help?
Quote:
I think this could be one of my flaws, sine I definitely bet out in these spots, tryin to take down these small pots.
check/call or check fold?
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there's no way you can check fold IMO. your hand is way too good to just give up like that. a lot of opponents will bet that flop with a wide range of hands. most of which haven't hit at all.
check/call is ok. but things start to get tricky when villain bets the turn because he thinks your weak.
is leading that flop really so bad? it means overcards don't get a free card. it's a vlaue bet against low pps. and you find out where you are in the hand. if he now raises you know you're beat (which is what happened).
but obviously a lot of it depends on reads
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zenbitz
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,911
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I really hate giveing a free card here, since he could have almost anything and exactly every card in the deck that's not a T or 4 is bad. If he's very aggressive you could check intending to raise, but you are going to almost always fold to another bet later.
I think I just play it the same
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bantam222
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 208
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Playing it like this is fine. You have the best hand here most of the time and should take down the pot. No need to give a free card. Also remember this bet only had to work half the time to break even, which is good consitering you are in the BB and start the hand with a major disadvantage. If you find you are getting re-popped here often, just be sure to play your strong hands the same and you will be able to take much more of their stack then the 2BB you are betting.
TPWK is not a hand you want to be playing a big pot with.
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bode
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Straight Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Location: slow motion
Posts: 4,270
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i think this is fine as played. I play hands like this the exact same and end up taking the small pot down way more than 50% of the time. Just play your stronger made hands the same and it will balance out.
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eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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[quote="pokerroomace"][quote="griffey24"]
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
i wouldnt bet the flop, does that help?
Quote:
I think this could be one of my flaws, sine I definitely bet out in these spots, tryin to take down these small pots.
check/call or check fold?
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there's no way you can check fold IMO. your hand is way too good to just give up like that. a lot of opponents will bet that flop with a wide range of hands. most of which haven't hit at all.
check/call is ok. but things start to get tricky when villain bets the turn because he thinks your weak.
is leading that flop really so bad? it means overcards don't get a free card. it's a vlaue bet against low pps. and you find out where you are in the hand. if he now raises you know you're beat (which is what happened).
but obviously a lot of it depends on reads |
how much heat can your hand take on the turn? Are you really planning to play a big pot out of position with T4o from the bb?
How many cards in the deck are scary and how do you react to getting raised when anyone of them falls?
In other words, on a fairly draw heavy flop, where any number of overs can fall and scare your action too, how do you expect to get to showdown? On such a draw heavy board your hand can hardly take a call, never mind a raise from any type of pair/draw or draw hands etc never mind those that already have you crushed.
Just because you have top pair does not mean you need to bet.
Also, in other situations, where you have a different hand, how is betting here going to make an opponent make a bigger mistake at another point? How might c/c'ing or threatening to c/r do so?
This hand is different if you have AT in the bb.
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pokerroomace
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Full House
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 783
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[quote="Miffed22001"][quote="pokerroomace"]
Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
i wouldnt bet the flop, does that help?
Quote:
I think this could be one of my flaws, sine I definitely bet out in these spots, tryin to take down these small pots.
check/call or check fold?
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there's no way you can check fold IMO. your hand is way too good to just give up like that. a lot of opponents will bet that flop with a wide range of hands. most of which haven't hit at all.
check/call is ok. but things start to get tricky when villain bets the turn because he thinks your weak.
is leading that flop really so bad? it means overcards don't get a free card. it's a vlaue bet against low pps. and you find out where you are in the hand. if he now raises you know you're beat (which is what happened).
but obviously a lot of it depends on reads |
how much heat can your hand take on the turn? Are you really planning to play a big pot out of position with T4o from the bb?
How many cards in the deck are scary and how do you react to getting raised when anyone of them falls?
In other words, on a fairly draw heavy flop, where any number of overs can fall and scare your action too, how do you expect to get to showdown? On such a draw heavy board your hand can hardly take a call, never mind a raise from any type of pair/draw or draw hands etc never mind those that already have you crushed.
Just because you have top pair does not mean you need to bet.
Also, in other situations, where you have a different hand, how is betting here going to make an opponent make a bigger mistake at another point? How might c/c'ing or threatening to c/r do so?
This hand is different if you have AT in the bb. |
if you don't bet you give up the hand to so many hands. you have the best hand most of the time so you should take down the pot now. you'll if you're in trouble by your opponents reaction.
check folding is just so weak and you definitely lose value. you are in a profitable situation with your TPWK here and you don't make a profit by folding!
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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[QUOTE="pokerroomace"][quote="Miffed22001"]
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerroomace
Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
i wouldnt bet the flop, does that help?
Quote:
I think this could be one of my flaws, sine I definitely bet out in these spots, tryin to take down these small pots.
check/call or check fold?
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there's no way you can check fold IMO. your hand is way too good to just give up like that. a lot of opponents will bet that flop with a wide range of hands. most of which haven't hit at all.
check/call is ok. but things start to get tricky when villain bets the turn because he thinks your weak.
is leading that flop really so bad? it means overcards don't get a free card. it's a vlaue bet against low pps. and you find out where you are in the hand. if he now raises you know you're beat (which is what happened).
but obviously a lot of it depends on reads |
how much heat can your hand take on the turn? Are you really planning to play a big pot out of position with T4o from the bb?
How many cards in the deck are scary and how do you react to getting raised when anyone of them falls?
In other words, on a fairly draw heavy flop, where any number of overs can fall and scare your action too, how do you expect to get to showdown? On such a draw heavy board your hand can hardly take a call, never mind a raise from any type of pair/draw or draw hands etc never mind those that already have you crushed.
Just because you have top pair does not mean you need to bet.
Also, in other situations, where you have a different hand, how is betting here going to make an opponent make a bigger mistake at another point? How might c/c'ing or threatening to c/r do so?
This hand is different if you have AT in the bb. |
if you don't bet you give up the hand to so many hands. you have the best hand most of the time so you should take down the pot now. you'll if you're in trouble by your opponents reaction.
check folding is just so weak and you definitely lose value. you are in a profitable situation with your TPWK here and you don't make a profit by folding! |
tp wk is not a good hand oop. When we realise this, we'll stop thinking about losing value with 'top pair' and think about the longer term of donking into half decent opponents here.
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salsa4ever
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,073
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[quote="Miffed22001"][QUOTE="pokerroomace"]
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerroomace
Quote:
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Originally Posted by griffey24
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
i wouldnt bet the flop, does that help?
Quote:
I think this could be one of my flaws, sine I definitely bet out in these spots, tryin to take down these small pots.
check/call or check fold?
|
there's no way you can check fold IMO. your hand is way too good to just give up like that. a lot of opponents will bet that flop with a wide range of hands. most of which haven't hit at all.
check/call is ok. but things start to get tricky when villain bets the turn because he thinks your weak.
is leading that flop really so bad? it means overcards don't get a free card. it's a vlaue bet against low pps. and you find out where you are in the hand. if he now raises you know you're beat (which is what happened).
but obviously a lot of it depends on reads |
how much heat can your hand take on the turn? Are you really planning to play a big pot out of position with T4o from the bb?
How many cards in the deck are scary and how do you react to getting raised when anyone of them falls?
In other words, on a fairly draw heavy flop, where any number of overs can fall and scare your action too, how do you expect to get to showdown? On such a draw heavy board your hand can hardly take a call, never mind a raise from any type of pair/draw or draw hands etc never mind those that already have you crushed.
Just because you have top pair does not mean you need to bet.
Also, in other situations, where you have a different hand, how is betting here going to make an opponent make a bigger mistake at another point? How might c/c'ing or threatening to c/r do so?
This hand is different if you have AT in the bb. |
if you don't bet you give up the hand to so many hands. you have the best hand most of the time so you should take down the pot now. you'll if you're in trouble by your opponents reaction.
check folding is just so weak and you definitely lose value. you are in a profitable situation with your TPWK here and you don't make a profit by folding! |
tp wk is not a good hand oop. When we realise this, we'll stop thinking about losing value with 'top pair' and think about the longer term of donking into half decent opponents here. |
i.e. the illusory strength of your TPNK is more than neutralized by your opponent's position if they are a good player.
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Originally Posted by bigred
Would you bone your cousins? Salsa would.
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Originally Posted by salsa4ever
well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
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Ash256
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,760
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If betting is incorrect (or verging on incorrect) here, is it better to give free cards and use our hand as a river-bluff catcher as long as we don't see any particularly scary cards?
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