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Is there even a reason to Cbet @ 25nl?

  
 
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givememyleg
Old 05-09-2006, 05:46 PM     Post subject: Is there even a reason to Cbet @ 25nl? #1 (permalink)  
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 I have been in this spot a lot lately. If I raise with position, with a hand like AQ-AK, get 3 callers, totally miss the flop and have it checked to me, what's the smart move? I know some situations vary, if you flop a draw, or how villian(s) have been acting... but I think that in a multiway pot, more often than not you're going to get called down by some fish with TPWK, or even MPWK.... Some examples:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($43.30)
UTG ($12.15)
UTG+1 ($19.35)
MP1 ($24.75)
givememyleg ($32.90)
CO ($6.15)
Button ($15.85)
SB ($13.10)

Preflop: givememyleg is MP2 with A, K.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, MP1 calls $0.25, givememyleg raises to $1, 4 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.75, MP1 calls $0.75.

Flop: ($3.35) 7, 4, 3 (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, givememyleg checks.

Turn: ($3.35) 6 (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, givememyleg bets $1.5, UTG+1 calls $1.50, MP1 folds.

River: ($6.35) 8 (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, givememyleg checks.

Final Pot: $6.35

Results:
UTG+1 has Td 7d (one pair, sevens).
givememyleg has Ah Kd (high card, ace).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins $6.35.

Villian was a calling station. He called down TPWK more times than I think I've ever seen anyone do. This is why I didn't bet the flop. When checked to me on the turn, was this a bad spot to bet? Was my amount too low? Should I have just avoided this completely and checked til the river?

********

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($11.85)
UTG ($9.40)
UTG+1 ($9.25)
givememyleg ($23.75)
MP2 ($11.40)
CO ($9.75)
Button ($10.35)
SB ($17.70)

Preflop: givememyleg is MP1 with 8, 8.
2 folds, givememyleg raises to $1, MP2 calls $1, 2 folds, SB calls $0.90, BB calls $0.75.

Flop: ($4) T, 5, J (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets $1, givememyleg ????

Ok so the BB took away my cbet, but how do you play this mid pp? If it was checked to me, would it even be worth a cbet? I feel my post flop skills are decent.. but my weakest leak is playing these mid pp postflop. I have SB labeled as decent, and no notes on other 2 villians.... How do I maximize value with mid pp's? I don't think just playing for a set will be good in the long run.

********

After the other failed cbets, this hand came up.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($24.75)
BB ($6.85)
UTG ($14.90)
givememyleg ($26.35)
MP1 ($15.35)
MP2 ($10.30)
MP3 ($9.40)
CO ($30.05)
Button ($24.65)

Preflop: givememyleg is UTG+1 with Q, A.
1 fold, givememyleg raises to $0.75, 2 folds, MP3 calls $0.75, 2 folds, SB calls $0.65, 1 fold.

Flop: ($2.50) 2, K, K (3 players)
SB checks, givememyleg checks, MP3 checks.

Turn: ($2.50) J (3 players)
SB checks, givememyleg checks, MP3 checks.

River: ($2.50) 9 (3 players)
SB checks, givememyleg checks, MP3 bets $1, SB folds, givememyleg folds.

Final Pot: $3.50

I am not saying I played this well, but I am in the pot with another calling station as earlier. I swear he would call any raise pf with any 2 cards and donked off his stack a couple of times... After relooking at this hand, I think this seems like a decent flop to cbet, but is it even worth it? Should I just wait til I have a hand and let him call me down?

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Renton
Old 05-09-2006, 05:55 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 yes there is, just don't do it too much


don't cbet multiway pots
don't cbet draw heavy boards
don't bet ak high for value

do raise weak bets with air (like in hand 2)
do bluff paired rainbow flops
do c-bet heads up 80% of the time
do check flop with top pair 20% of the time
do fire a second barrel on the turn 20% of the time
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Rondavu
Old 05-09-2006, 05:55 PM #3 (permalink)  
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C-Bet less frequently. Do it only with outstanding perceived fold equity at loose tables against loose opponents. It has nothing to do with 25NL in the abstract. Some 25NL tables are tight.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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EricE
Old 05-09-2006, 05:55 PM #4 (permalink)  
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The rule to consider is: be less inclined to C-Bet the more opponents you are up against. Also consider the calling station-ness of your opponents. If they are very likely to call then your C-Bet brings you nothing.
Be more inclined to C-Bet the stronger your unmade hand is (the more draws).
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AHiltz
Old 05-09-2006, 06:08 PM #5 (permalink)  
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80-90% of my cbets were folded to last night at 25nl.

Don't cbet multiway. You should do so in order for your hard hit flops to get paid off.

And what they said
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Bear Bones
Old 05-09-2006, 06:15 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
yes there is, just don't do it too much


don't cbet multiway pots
don't cbet draw heavy boards
don't bet ak high for value

do raise weak bets with air (like in hand 2)
do bluff paired rainbow flops
do c-bet heads up 80% of the time
do check flop with top pair 80% of the time
do fire a second barrel on the turn 20% of the time
check flop with top pair 80% of the time? can you elaborate on this?
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EricE
Old 05-09-2006, 06:17 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
do check flop with top pair 80% of the time
I disagree. For starters I would change that to 20% of the time and then make it subject to the multiway pot rule. Be less inclined to bluff the more opponents you are up against. In this case(we have TP), bluffing means checking...so don't do it multiway. You can't get paid if you don't bet (or they don't).
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Renton
Old 05-09-2006, 06:17 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear Bones
check flop with top pair 80% of the time? can you elaborate on this?
rofl

I was just testing you. Honest.

<post fixed>
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Lukie
Old 05-09-2006, 06:44 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Villian was a calling station. He called down TPWK more times than I think I've ever seen anyone do. This is why I didn't bet the flop. When checked to me on the turn, was this a bad spot to bet? Was my amount too low? Should I have just avoided this completely and checked til the river?
looooool you check behind on the flop, telling the entire table that you have whiffed overcards, then it's checked to you on the turn and you bet less then 1/2 pot on the turn expecting the other guy to fold his top pair? post-flop, I play it the same as he does. Actually, on the river, I know what you have, and I'd consider a value bet with my pair of 7's if I didn't think you would try to bluff me with your AK. Depending on many factors, sometimes I bet this flop, sometimes I bet this turn (after being checked to twice). But make a real bet if you do. In this particular case, it's probably best to try to take it down on the flop or not at all.

hand 2: Really awkward. I'd probably make it $5 and be done with the hand if I didn't win it there. Other options include calling and making a move on the turn, calling and folding to a real bet on the turn, or making a really weak fold on the flop.

hand 3: Depends on opponents more then anything. Thats really all I can say. Some people love calling you down with 77 here. Others automatically put you on AK since you raised preflop...
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Aces
Old 05-09-2006, 07:43 PM #10 (permalink)  
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You should rarely cbet if not HU, but you may want to start adjusting your PF bet up if you're getting too many callers, especially if there are limpers before you.
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givememyleg
Old 05-09-2006, 07:52 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
looooool you check behind on the flop, telling the entire table that you have whiffed overcards, then it's checked to you on the turn and you bet less then 1/2 pot on the turn expecting the other guy to fold his top pair? post-flop, I play it the same as he does. Actually, on the river, I know what you have, and I'd consider a value bet with my pair of 7's if I didn't think you would try to bluff me with your AK. Depending on many factors, sometimes I bet this flop, sometimes I bet this turn (after being checked to twice). But make a real bet if you do. In this particular case, it's probably best to try to take it down on the flop or not at all.
I know, I'm not saying he played this bad at all... I would most likely call as well. I played it poorly and I guess I should either try and cbet the flop or just forget about it all together.

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fasin8ing
Old 05-09-2006, 08:00 PM #12 (permalink)  
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I CBET after every PF raise except in the cases Renton stated above. Its awesome because its a pattern weak players will pick up as being routine. When I hit my set , its convincing enough that Iam just going through my routine. Givememyleg.. 1/2 pot it .. when you Cbet whether you miss or hit.
 
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cardsman1992
Old 05-09-2006, 08:09 PM #13 (permalink)  
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If you c-bet flop in hand three, what's the better play? Lead turn or check turn? I would lead turn myself, but it seems dangerous....and I would fold to a raise.
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Renton
Old 05-09-2006, 08:14 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cardsman1992
If you c-bet flop in hand three, what's the better play? Lead turn or check turn? I would lead turn myself, but it seems dangerous....and I would fold to a raise.
In hand three I would check flop with the intention of raising. Then I would lead a non club turn. Its a feasible KKK line, whereas cbetting the flop would be un-credible.
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Rondavu
Old 05-09-2006, 08:46 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
cbetting the flop would be un-credible.
Me fail english? That's un-possible.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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Dislexsik
Old 05-09-2006, 08:59 PM #16 (permalink)  
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I don't cbet when their are 3 callers preflop.But i always cbet with 2 callers.So its a leak and i should only cbet 20% of the time with hands like AK?And it all depens on how many outs u have,right?
 
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Renton
Old 05-09-2006, 09:04 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dislexsik
And it all depens on how many outs u have,right?
not really

it depends more on the flop texture

However, I will almost always c-bet a multiway flop with AK on JTx because I have a strong draw.
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Lukie
Old 05-09-2006, 10:38 PM #18 (permalink)  
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 AK on a JTx board is a strong draw?

O RLY
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martindcx1e
Old 05-09-2006, 10:46 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dislexsik
And it all depens on how many outs u have,right?
not really

it depends more on the flop texture

However, I will almost always c-bet a multiway flop with AK on JTx because I have a strong draw.
i would lean towards not c-betting this because...

1. 2 broadways makes it more likely that someone hit
2. i would hate to get raised out of this hand w/ my gutshot draw to the nuts that would be a likely help to someone else's hand
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Renton
Old 05-10-2006, 01:36 AM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
AK on a JTx board is a strong draw?

O RLY
If you count the overs as outs (most of the time they are), then you have 10. Isn't that a fairly good draw?
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Lukie
Old 05-10-2006, 02:49 AM #21 (permalink)  
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 When 6 of your 10 outs are really dirty (and often not outs at all) and give you horrible reverse implied odds when they aren't clean, I don't consider it much of a big draw at all.

5h6h, board: Kh 2h 2s

AKo, board: JTxr

see the similarities?

Compare that to

89o, board: 67xr

where you have 8 outs to the nuts and could conceivably win a massive pot against a hand like a set, t2p, etc.
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salsa4ever
Old 05-11-2006, 01:58 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
AK on a JTx board is a strong draw?

O RLY
without saying whether it's a strong draw or not, I would generally check behind as a default play in this situation and vary with reads
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well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?
 
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