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Theory: 3betting and the abcd theorum

  
 
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NLHE lahooozaher
Old 07-28-2008, 09:45 PM     Post subject: Theory: 3betting and the abcd theorum #1 (permalink)  
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I've been trying this month to study the game a ton for my move up to 200nl in September and am really unsure about something and could use alot of input on this subject.

My usual game is 100nl at Stars but last night I decided I wanted to try out new things but play lower so I played the worst 50nl games I could find to try to put myself in weird spots...

Hand 1: The UTG raiser is 20/17 after ~100 hands. Here I want to reraise because the people behind me are loose but if I reraise I feel it gives away my hand a little too much and a decent player is going to fold the majority of his hands.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($50.40)
UTG ($95.85)
UTG+1 ($12.70)
MP1 ($79.35)
MP2 ($68.60)
MP3 ($50.45)
Hero ($50.75)
Button ($14.50)
SB ($10.90)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A, A.
UTG raises to $2, 4 folds, Hero??

Hand 2: Villain is a 12/9 player who I have around 1k hands with but no history with and most of those hands came from 100nl. He's standard abc 2p2 TAG. Here I want to reraise but if I do I'm using the abcd theorum really badly because this is a hand I'd like to see a flop with yet can't stand a 4bet and worst of all if I do get called I'm never going to get this guy to stack off with AJ-. Is there an upside to 3betting AQs here?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

BB ($9.20)
UTG ($54)
UTG+1 ($33.40)
MP1 ($50.50)
MP2 ($45.50)
CO ($16.25)
Hero ($55.70)
SB ($53.25)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, Q.
2 folds, MP1 raises to $2, 1 fold, CO calls $2, Hero??

Hand 3: Villain is the same villain as above and the same reasoning applies to my decision.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Button ($49.80)
SB ($25.25)
BB ($61.65)
UTG ($59.75)
UTG+1 ($56.25)
MP1 ($49.75)
Hero ($55.75)
CO ($9.25)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J, J.
UTG raises to $2, 2 folds, Hero??

The AQs and JJ hands have always been 3bets for me and I've won alot yet they seem to be very wrong when I think about it.
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aka_red
Old 07-28-2008, 09:47 PM #2 (permalink)  
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/wrists
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Miffed22001
Old 07-28-2008, 09:52 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 call
squeeze
call

IMO, but then im trying to play differently at 1/2
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NLHE lahooozaher
Old 07-28-2008, 09:59 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reDZill4
/wrists
I guess you didn't get the part about "alot of input". If you think I'm wrong, tell me why. Don't be a douche.
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NLHE lahooozaher
Old 07-28-2008, 10:01 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
call
squeeze
call

IMO, but then im trying to play differently at 1/2
Could you explain why squeeze instead of call?
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Miffed22001
Old 07-28-2008, 10:26 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NLHE lahooozaher
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
call
squeeze
call

IMO, but then im trying to play differently at 1/2
Could you explain why squeeze instead of call?
We having everything going for us - strong hand, strong position and dead money.
If your opponent is good hes about 10/9 from MP! and AQs has good equity versus that range. Plus we build a nice image and IMO you should squeeze people constantly until they adapt, which even at 1/2 and especially at 50nl they will take time to do.
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NLHE lahooozaher
Old 07-28-2008, 10:35 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Yeah, he's actually 10/10 from MP and 20/20 when the pot isn't opened yet. Surely AQs is ahead of his range but it wants to see a flop so it sucks if I get 4bet and I'm not expecting him to stackoff postflop if he happens to call. However he may make mistakes by folding the best hand (stupid setmining hands) which may make up for him not stacking off worse but I doubt he's going to be calling 88 here.

Any thoughts about my rambling thoughts?
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a500lbgorilla
Old 07-28-2008, 11:57 PM #8 (permalink)  
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3bet
3bet
3bet 50% call 50%

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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NLHE lahooozaher
Old 07-29-2008, 12:07 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
3bet
3bet
3bet 50% call 50%
the reasoning is great. fuck you to.
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pgil
Old 07-29-2008, 01:49 AM #10 (permalink)  
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I don't get why you are so worried about opps stacking off range in the AQ hand. what sort of flops could opp stack off with less of a hand than you if you just call that he can't if you 3bet? If he is felting AJ in one situation I would imagine he is in the other as well. You are thinking too much about this I do believe.

Try to focus on taking more small-medium sized pots, the big ones tend to take care of themselves.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 07-29-2008, 01:54 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NLHE lahooozaher
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
3bet
3bet
3bet 50% call 50%
the reasoning is great. fuck you to.
ha... wow.

ok.

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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aka_red
Old 07-29-2008, 02:01 AM #12 (permalink)  
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ban op
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NLHE lahooozaher
Old 07-29-2008, 02:06 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reDZill4
ban op
yes ban me. It makes a great difference in my life esp. when I post for detailed answers and i get one liners. zomg what a great loss.
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bjsaust
Old 07-29-2008, 02:11 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Detailed answer: Bet for value at 50nl.
Just playing to improve.
 
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kmind
Old 07-29-2008, 02:46 AM #15 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1: I like reraising because I don't want many more people calling and loose players will still call 3bets a good amount of the time. Also, someone could put you on a bluff thinking you are just 3betting a very loose player.

Hand 2: I'd rather wait for a hand like a SC that plays much better postflop. You kind of said it in your post that if you flop an A or Q it probably won't do much.

Hand 3: I call because I doubt he'll call a 3bet with anything worse than JJ which turns your hand into a bluff.

Hope that was somewhat detailed as I like you, but I'm on vacation so it's not the most detailed response ever.
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pgil
Old 07-29-2008, 02:47 AM #16 (permalink)  
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looks like you are seriously overthinking things here. Opp in the first hand is running really loose/aggressive, what makes you think he will stop once you put in a raise? if he is thinking about image/metagame/whatever he will think you are playing back at him. more likely, he will call with his whatever he has too often and then stack off too eagerly with his TP/overpair/weird ass draw.

you write that 'a decent player is going to fold the majority of his hands', but will this opp?

If you want to put yourself in some tougher spots, then calling the JJ hand will do that a lot. probably get at least 1 caller behind, leaving you oop against an EP raiser and a likely unknown's wide LP calling range, while you have a medium strength hand that isn't going to be thrilled with a lot of flops.
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Keilah
Old 07-29-2008, 02:54 AM #17 (permalink)  
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OP: Don't be such a pouty b!tch when people don't give you exactly what you want.

AQs: If you 3bet, and he 4bets, he has a hand that is better than AQs. That means QQ+, AK. The only way you're beating those hands postflop is if you hit a Qvs his AK or an A vs his QQ/KK. Either way he's not paying you much.

If you don't 3bet and he has one of those hands you'll likely lose more than the 3-bet price postflop.

Besides squeezing is sexy.
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givememyleg
Old 07-29-2008, 04:42 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NLHE lahooozaher
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
3bet
3bet
3bet 50% call 50%
the reasoning is great. fuck you to.
yikes, chill out

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Renton
Old 07-29-2008, 06:13 AM #19 (permalink)  
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 i would mix it up with 1, and almost always call 2 and 3
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Renton
Old 07-29-2008, 06:14 AM #20 (permalink)  
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 also fwiw i'm happy with probably over 90 percent of flops when i call in position with two jacks
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Renton
Old 07-29-2008, 06:15 AM #21 (permalink)  
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 also, chill the fuck out
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daven
Old 07-29-2008, 10:25 AM     Post subject: Re: Theory: 3betting and the abcd theorum #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NLHE lahooozaher
Hand 1: The UTG raiser is 20/17 after ~100 hands. Here I want to reraise because the people behind me are loose but if I reraise I feel it gives away my hand a little too much and a decent player is going to fold the majority of his hands.
two options if table is as described
1) see a flop multi-way (4+) with AA
2) re-raise and probably see a flop vs at least one of the loose players left to act.
Choose 2, cos 1) is bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NLHE lahooozaher
Hand 2: Villain is a 12/9 player who I have around 1k hands with but no history with and most of those hands came from 100nl. He's standard abc 2p2 TAG. Here I want to reraise but if I do I'm using the abcd theorum really badly because this is a hand I'd like to see a flop with yet can't stand a 4bet and worst of all if I do get called I'm never going to get this guy to stack off with AJ-. Is there an upside to 3betting AQs here?
yes, there is an upside. You take down the pot or see a flop with initiative and position.
downsides to calling:
1) AQs is easily dominated
2) Postflop is a little complex
upsides to calling:
1) you're in position with a fun hand.
downsides to folding:
1) opportunity cost - both in $$ and in building image. They fold, you get AA next hand and 3-bet again. etc.
Mix it up a bit. Call some and 3-bet some.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NLHE lahooozaher
Hand 3: Villain is the same villain as above and the same reasoning applies to my decision.
mix it up, call more often than 3-bet - play it the same as 99.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NLHE lahooozaher
The AQs and JJ hands have always been 3bets for me and I've won alot yet they seem to be very wrong when I think about it.
please explain more thoroughly for those of us (i.e. me) who don't quite understand what you mean
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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bode
Old 07-29-2008, 10:54 AM #23 (permalink)  
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 am i missing the theorem?
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daven
Old 07-29-2008, 11:07 AM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bode
am i missing the theorem?
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...em-t70711.html
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pgil
Old 07-29-2008, 02:06 PM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
also fwiw i'm happy with probably over 90 percent of flops when i call in position with two jacks
but how many do you like when you are sandwiched between the initial raiser and a LP caller when you are in MP1?
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nutsinho
Old 07-29-2008, 05:35 PM #26 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
also fwiw i'm happy with probably over 90 percent of flops when i call in position with two jacks
but how many do you like when you are sandwiched between the initial raiser and a LP caller when you are in MP1?
85%
My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
 
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nutsinho
Old 07-29-2008, 05:36 PM #27 (permalink)  
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 how many flops do you like when you 3bet your JJ and opp 4bets?
My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
 
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pgil
Old 07-29-2008, 05:36 PM #28 (permalink)  
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really, I suck at playing JJ postflop
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