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Taking my game to the next level I hope

  
 
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wufwugy
Old 11-06-2007, 11:09 PM     Post subject: Taking my game to the next level I hope #1 (permalink)  
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 I've jumped to 2/4 and some 3/6, between 8-12 tables, I run at 12/10, AF by street around 5/2.5/2.5. I feel like I've got preflop and thin valuing when I have the initiative down well, but I am lacking in bluffing, blinds, and limped pots. I'll post a hand or two a day or every other in hopes that I can fix these leaks.

Here's one from last night.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (7 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($82.30)
BB ($390)
Hero ($802.40)
MP1 ($389.40)
MP2 ($308.20)
CO ($283.55)
Button ($643)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K, A.
Hero raises to $16, 3 folds, Button calls $16, 2 folds.

Flop: ($38) 3, 4, 5 (2 players)

Villian is loosefer, 13/9/6 over 400 hands, no memorable history. I think we can either c/f flop or plan for a multistreet bluff when we don't improve. If we're gonna bluff then I'm thinking cbet flop, and crai ui turn since villian has high af. Give up on river if called.

Or we could double barrel, but then we need to triple barrel since it's very hard to rep a monster here. Or just c/f, which is what I did partly because I was playing poorly last night.

How does our perception change as villian gets looser and less aggressive, and am I right in guessing that if we improve we're looking to see a showdown since we're not improving to anything we want a lot of action on?
 
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NYTyler
Old 11-07-2007, 12:24 AM #2 (permalink)  
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good luck my man...and by the way nice ass
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BankItDrew
Old 11-07-2007, 04:45 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 I like a double barrel from flop to turn.

Congrats on moving up in levels man. I remember playing a lot of hands against you @ 100nl and I am yet to successfully move to 200nl. I hope you pwn 2/4.

Can you give me a 1 sentance or less response on the biggest transition you needed to make from 100NL?


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wufwugy
Old 11-07-2007, 06:44 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 Hard to say. I personally think that your vpip and pfr are too far apart. I believe I have you at 17/7 or something. The best fullring player I know of is between 13/9 and 15/11, I think, and it seems that a ~4% gap between vpip and pfr is optimal. However, I think there are a few who don't have that yet are exceptional players.

I believe I saw that you said you don't use hud. Big. Mistake. I bet that all it takes to be a solid winner at the highest regular games is a deep understanding of poker theory and hud stats.

I've never really made any transitions from one stake to another. I've played a lot at different times, and it really has just boiled down to getting better at poker. This isn't my first time at 2/4 either. I played it before for about 10k hands as a 24/20. I may likely drop back down to 1/2 anyways. My jump was triggered mainly by the increase in tables that made 1/2 more difficult to beat than 2/4 and 3/6 for a couple days at least.

Honestly, if you can grind a ton of tables, I think that 100nl is one of the best places to be. There are a ton of bad players, and the regs are decent at best, except for like one or two. You gave me a little bit of trouble, but we didn't tangle much anyways. Not playing against good regs is a big big plus. Winrate skyrockets when you're not getting tricked out of pots that should be yours. I would possibly grind 100nl if I could 24 table without going barmy. I may 18 table there from time to time actually.

The biggest improvements in my game have come from the obvious - playing more, and simply just learning about the thought processes of better players.

But watch, I'll suck sick at 2/4 and move down for a while. Already 6k b/e. Or I'll pwn. We'll see.
 
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Fnord
Old 11-07-2007, 08:09 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Last time I played full ring, I ran at 18/12. Although that's probably inflated since I had a rush of Aces and such.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Setzy
Old 11-07-2007, 09:30 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
The best fullring player I know of is between 13/9 and 15/11, I think...
Feel like dropping any names....I mean, you have ONE guy in mind?
Save your stories 'cuz they're all the same..
 
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Renton
Old 11-07-2007, 02:48 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 bet flop since you are oop with possibly the best hand and a ton of suckout equity.

You can bet a lot of turns and c/r bluff as well, but this isn't a "betting the flop commits you to betting the turn" scenario.
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wufwugy
Old 11-08-2007, 12:06 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Setzy
Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
The best fullring player I know of is between 13/9 and 15/11, I think...
Feel like dropping any names....I mean, you have ONE guy in mind?
Phresh from 2p2. I don't know his Stars handle. He's perhaps not the best, but he is the only one who seems to post regular 5ptbb graphs at 2/4 and 3/6. I know Renton thinks he's comparable, which he probably is, and I'm betting others like DaNutsInYoEye and uconnsports are about as good.

He could also just be running good for a long while. I personally find it baffling to be able to beat 1/2+ for 4ptbb+. I seem to be somewhere around 2.5-3ptbb at the pre-update 1/2, and I don't seem to have any glaring weaknesses that the other tags there don't.

There are a couple 2p2ers, tooeasy is one, don't remember the other, who say they run around 24/20 and 20/16 and have ridic high winrates. Then there's Kelistaan, runs around 32/25 iirc, and some say he's ridic good while others say he's a spewtard. I've never played with him.

I'd be happy with 2ptbb at 2/4. More money than I know how to spend.
 
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wufwugy
Old 11-08-2007, 12:20 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
bet flop since you are oop with possibly the best hand and a ton of suckout equity.

You can bet a lot of turns and c/r bluff as well, but this isn't a "betting the flop commits you to betting the turn" scenario.
I don't see how we can bet flop and not be committed to bet or crai turn since villian will float a lot of his range. How much value is there in triple barreling and trying to rep AA or KK since we're UTG?
 
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wufwugy
Old 11-08-2007, 01:22 AM #10 (permalink)  
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 Well I run beyond ridiculously bad. I think I"m gonna spend some time at 100nl now. Villian had aces just one too many times. I'll be able to get in like twice the hands, but CANT BROWSE THE INTERNETS WELL NOOOO.

I'll should still be able to post relevant hands in the forum though. I really think I need to simply just be a more active member. I'm not because I don't like the idea of helping the competition. That's how the games have gotten so tough in the first place. But fuck it. I'll be getting coaching from Krantz, cts, and the bld eventually anyways.
 
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Renton
Old 11-08-2007, 05:04 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
bet flop since you are oop with possibly the best hand and a ton of suckout equity.

You can bet a lot of turns and c/r bluff as well, but this isn't a "betting the flop commits you to betting the turn" scenario.
I don't see how we can bet flop and not be committed to bet or crai turn since villian will float a lot of his range.
You have a lot of equity vs his flop calling range. You will often hit the turn and get value, therefore betting the flop doesn't commit you to bluffing the turn. The flop bet itself is plus ev in a vacuum.
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DaNutsInYoEye
Old 11-09-2007, 03:10 AM #12 (permalink)  
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
 
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wufwugy
Old 11-09-2007, 06:13 AM #13 (permalink)  
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 Niceness.

That's a pretty high W$WSF% for fullring. Especially since you're looser than most. Standard? Explanation?

I don't imagine you're getting all that from cbetting and multibarreling. That would be quite hard and very swingy. Especially since you'll get looked up lighter. Are you stealing a lot of limped pots or from the blinds or something?

Or maybe you can get that by cbetting a lot. I did have a 20k 4ptbb stretch at 100nl as a 24/20 with about a 38% WSF, I think. But eh, variance.
 
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BankItDrew
Old 11-09-2007, 07:05 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 What do you recommend for a HUD?


Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!

Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?

Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
 
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DaNutsInYoEye
Old 11-09-2007, 08:16 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
What do you recommend for a HUD?
turn it off
TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
 
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BankItDrew
Old 11-09-2007, 08:22 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
Quote:
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
What do you recommend for a HUD?
turn it off
why
u don't want me to have stats on you? or u just don't think it's a good idea
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bigspenda73
Old 11-09-2007, 08:37 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
Quote:
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
What do you recommend for a HUD?
turn it off
Plot thickens

I'm intrigued
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DaNutsInYoEye
Old 11-09-2007, 09:12 PM #18 (permalink)  
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just a personal preference. i don't use one and think most people rely on them too much.
TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
 
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Renton
Old 11-09-2007, 10:22 PM #19 (permalink)  
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 not using a hud multitabling mid limit full ring games seems needlessly gung ho.
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 11-09-2007, 10:57 PM #20 (permalink)  
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 Can you nits just die and learn how to play poker

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wufwugy
Old 11-09-2007, 10:59 PM #21 (permalink)  
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 Without my hud I wouldn't have gotten three streets of value from this 30/11.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (7 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($197)
SB ($78.75)
BB ($151.75)
UTG ($70.45)
MP1 ($337.90)
MP2 ($389.10)
CO ($48.20)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A, Q.
1 fold, MP1 calls $2, 1 fold, CO calls $2, Hero raises to $12, 2 folds, MP1 calls $10, CO folds.

Flop: ($29) A, 3, 9 (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $20, MP1 calls $20.

Turn: ($69) 5 (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $46, MP1 calls $46.

River: ($161) 4 (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $119 (All-In), MP1 calls $119.

Final Pot: $399

Results in white below:
MP1 has 6c Ac (one pair, aces).
Hero has Ad Qs (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins $399.
 
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wufwugy
Old 11-09-2007, 11:01 PM #22 (permalink)  
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 Pokerace is what most of us use.
 
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wufwugy
Old 11-09-2007, 11:34 PM #23 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
You have a lot of equity vs his flop calling range. You will often hit the turn and get value, therefore betting the flop doesn't commit you to bluffing the turn. The flop bet itself is plus ev in a vacuum.
Is this hand in line with the same analysis?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($227.05)
MP1 ($81)
MP2 ($289)
CO ($266.10)
Button ($268.40)
SB ($67.55)
BB ($80)
UTG ($309.30)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A, K.
1 fold, Hero raises to $8, 3 folds, Button calls $8, 2 folds.

Flop: ($19) 9, 2, 4 (2 players)
Hero bets $14, Button folds.

Final Pot: $19
 
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Renton
Old 11-09-2007, 11:37 PM #24 (permalink)  
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 you don't have a gutshot in that hand

the gutshot helps matters a lot.

But in both of these hands double barreling is pretty good simply bc u are utg.
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DaNutsInYoEye
Old 11-10-2007, 12:18 AM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
not using a hud multitabling mid limit full ring games seems needlessly gung ho.
like i said, just my personal preference. i'm sure i'm giving up value in certain spots, but feel i make up for it in others. i find it annoying when someone's stats conflict with what i've observed personally. i'd put my winrate up against anyone playing $200-$600 FR 8+ tables with a HUD.
TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
 
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BankItDrew
Old 11-10-2007, 03:24 AM #26 (permalink)  
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 I've had a ton of success w/o the use of a HUD, but I am interested in seeing what sort of difference it would make. Maybe it'll help, so I'll get back to you with an update on how it goes.


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