Originally Posted by Les_Worm

It is a little confusing to me though b/c I would think he would want to protect his Jack from the club draw on the flop.

Originally Posted by spino1i

What were you doing raising to 4x BB in EP with J8s in full 200 NL game? Thats suicide imo. He's probably got a good hand, some people like to make a big stand on the turn with their good hands. If i had to guess jack with better kicker or set, maybe even overpair. Fold.

Originally Posted by dsaxton

Because I was representing a hand. It hardly matters what my cards are since I'm not even going to end up showing this hand down 90% of the time. I just saw a couple suited, semi-connected cards with a jack, so I have some flush and marginal pairing and straight value, and decided to make this play.

Plus, if the hand does get shown, I'll be more likely to get loose action later on, and since I'm raising with hands like this along with premium hands I'll be raising more frequently, which makes it seem like I have loose raising standards (which is true when this is the case). Nothing says that someone is a rock more than folding 20 hands in a row, and then finally raising.

Originally Posted by spino1i

Youd be surpised how often you see a showdown. What you're basically doing is signing yourself up to play a dominated hand out of position (its very likely someone will call with AA-88, AJ, KJ, QJ, KQ all sorts of nasty stuff thats ahead of you). This is a sure recipe for disaster. And what is your reward if you "bluff" the opposition out and no one calls you? You win a paltry 3 dollars (the blinds) while risking 8 dollars. Its just not worth it in my opinion.

Originally Posted by dsaxton

I know about how often I'll see a showdown, since I do this constantly. If someone calls with a hand which dominates mine, then there's only a 10% chance that the shared card will flop, and the rest of the time I'll usually be able to successfully bluff the other player out because they miss or a scare card for their hand falls (e.g., I raise with J-8, my opponent calls with A-J, and the flop comes K, J, 4)

If I have no hand and my flop bet gets called or raised, then 99% of the time, I'm done with the hand and I've hardly lost anything. But you're ignoring the situation where I actually make the best hand and get action from a second best hand, which actually does happen with surprising frequency in situations like these. I've made plays like this in the past with similar hands and won huge pots after catching a favorable flop because my aggressive play had been building the pot, and my opponent usually misreads my hand.

As far as getting called by a hand which is "ahead" is concerned, in a cash game, preflop "win percentages" are almost completely irrelevant unless a player is all-in before the flop. It doesn't matter if a player with K-Q or A-J is a significant favorite over me. They're going to fold most of the time on the flop anyways as long as I continue betting aggressively.

Finally, it's not really a case of "I'm risking $8 to win $3." First, I risk $8 to win $3, and if that fails, I'll risk $12 to win around $20, and finally I may make the best hand and not even have to bluff. And all this has the added benefit of perhaps contributing to a reputation as a loose player.