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still struggling with 3b pots oop

  
 
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dev
Old 04-07-2008, 07:14 PM     Post subject: still struggling with 3b pots oop #1 (permalink)  
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v = 10/8/6/300
PokerStars Pot-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

MP1 ($42.90)
MP2 ($26.55)
CO ($22.30)
Button ($21.20)
SB ($4.25)
BB ($25.70)
Hero ($59.80)
UTG+1 ($23.60)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with , .
Hero raises to $0.85, 1 fold, MP1 raises to $2.9, 5 folds, Hero calls $2.05.

Flop: ($6.15) , , (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets $4.75, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $6.15

We're both pretty deep. I can lead the flop and get away, or I can c/r and shove the turn, etc. I have some options. Here I still think I played it well, but what if the opp is a little looser? What if he knows I'm raising 22+,AQ+ and occasionally SCs here? I can't help but think this is non-standard.
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Hawk
Old 04-07-2008, 08:45 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 I've been having issues in these spots as well.

I think b/f might be the best play, but I'm not very sure about that.

I've also been thinking about 4-betting preflop as villain will pretty much put you on AA/KK only (if they are at all like the average semi-thinking opponents I've seen) and so you can probably find out what they really think of their hand depending on what they do. Especially if he puts you on the range you mentioned, he might be 3betting with AK or the top end (more than AA/KK) of his pocket pairs and give those up. Of course this leads to "how do i handle a flop where I hit a pair...or even two if he's probably now got AA/KK?" I haven't tried this yet...just been considering it.

I'm curious what others think about these spots too.
 
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Fnord
Old 04-07-2008, 08:51 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Fold to the 3-bet. He plays too tight, don't give him action.
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aka_red
Old 04-07-2008, 09:33 PM #4 (permalink)  
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id raise 1$ pf mebbe more call 3bet then b/f c/f coz hes prolly got you keeeled. if he calls your bet on the flop what are you going to do on a non-a/k turn? i suppose you could also c/c but beign oop makes it really easy for him to pick this pot up when u dont hit. plus i think his range has you killed right now so your only way to pick up the pot is through getting him to fold or spiking your a/k and hoping its good
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BankItDrew
Old 04-07-2008, 09:44 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 if you think villain thinks your raising preflop range is wide, dump to their re-raises with less than paired hands.


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Ronfar
Old 04-07-2008, 09:58 PM     Post subject: Possible Lines #6 (permalink)  

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I find myself in these spots some of the time too, so I'm going to try to break it down a little deeper. Obviously simply folding AK to a 3-bet from a semi-nit is a good option, as Fnord suggested, but lets assume you call.

Based on the villain's stats, I would guess his 3-betting range is probably somewhere between AK+, QQ+ and AQ+, JJ+. We'll consider both separately as the "worst" and "best" case scenarios.

With you having an A and a K, there are 3 combinations each of AA/KK that are possible, 6 combinations of QQ, and 6 of JJ. There are 9 combinations of AK (considering you have an A and a K) as well as 12 combinations of AQ.

If Villain's 3-betting range is AQ+, JJ+ (best case scenario imo), then he is only likely folding AK/AQ on this flop to a donk-bet, and very possibly floating with them some of the time. Lets assume villain floats 20% for sake of argument. In that case, he is calling/raising with 3 combos of AA, 3 of KK, 6 of QQ, 6 of JJ, and folding 80% of 21 AQ/AK combos.

Thus, in the "best case" scenario, villain is folding 17/39, or ~%43 of the time. A 3/4 pot donk bet is possibly +EV, though by a small amount.

In the "worse case" scenario, villain is only folding 80% of 9 AK combos, and calling with 3AA, 3KK, and 6QQ. So he folds 7/21, or ~%33 of the time. A 3/4 pot donk bet here is very probably not +EV.

I suppose it's also very possible the particular villain has an extremely tight 3-betting range of KK+ as well, and though unlikely, probably should be considered given his stats.

Given these scenarios, I think c/f flop is best as played, and Fnord is right about folding AK to 3-bets from those with similar stats in the future, unless you notice them 3-betting you very frequently.
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Pasta
Old 04-08-2008, 04:50 AM #7 (permalink)  

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I know what your thinking dev. I have AK and maybe I am letting villain 3-bet me light and push me off a great hand. This line of thought is a leak at 100NL, let alone 25nL. I know this because I have thrown away hundreds of bb on this particular leak. Assuming a tight player is 3-betting you tight until they prove otherwise will save you a lot of money. At best, your passing up on a marginally profitable situation.

With stacks this deep, if you know villain is 3-betting you light you can 4-bet and push the flop. With 100BB you can just 4-bet push. Both are +EV but high variance against a light 3-better. Against the typical AK+/QQ+ 3-bet range, anything other than a fold is just spew.
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Miffed22001
Old 04-08-2008, 05:11 AM #8 (permalink)  
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 fold preflop.
Your opponent probably isnt even 3betting QQ so youre fucked versus his range.
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kmind
Old 04-08-2008, 05:28 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
fold preflop.
Your opponent probably isnt even 3betting QQ so youre fucked versus his range.
right and even if he does this with JJ and QQ you won't play a big pot when a A or K hits.
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daven
Old 04-08-2008, 10:26 AM     Post subject: Re: still struggling with 3b pots oop #10 (permalink)  
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 fold pre. Villain's 3-betting range has you likely to get stacked if an ace or a king flops.
don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

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