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FlyingSaucy
Old 12-05-2006, 03:04 PM     Post subject: still learning #1 (permalink)  
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Hi all - I don't post much in here but since I have started playing ring I'm realizing that my game is OK, however I often feel that I am clueless in a lot of situations post flop. I've been playing $50NL and $100NL, I feel my BR is borderline between the two levels. I am guessing I should have spent my time last night posting here instead of donking my chips off at FT.

So I'm probably going to have a bunch of HHs to post in the next week or so. Here's one from this morning at $100 PL on stars. The interesting thing about this one is the number of preflop callers. I'm not sure how to handle all of them out of position on a flop like this. What do you recommend?

Poker Stars
Pot Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.55/$1.1
7 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $70
FlyingSaucy: $6.40
MP1: $0
CO: $35
Button: $65
SB: $20
BB: $9.55

Pre-flop: (7 players) FlyingSaucy is UTG+1 with K K
FlyingSaucy raises to $0, MP1 calls all-in $0, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: 6 7 9 ($, 5 players + 1 all-in - Main pot: $)
BB checks, UTG checks, FlyingSaucy bets $6, CO raises to $12, Button folds, BB calls, UTG folds

What do you do here? I'm having a hard time laying to down against a minraise, although calling doesn't seem appropriate either because I've still got positional disadvantage on the turn.
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FlyingSaucy
Old 12-05-2006, 03:07 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Not sure what the hell happened to the HH, I used the crypto one. It was actually a full table. Stack sizes are all wrong too. Not sure where .55/1.1 came from either, lol!
Hang on, I'll need to just post the raw data.


PokerStars Game #7310080144: Hold'em Pot Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2006/12/05 - 10:46:04 (ET)
Table 'Buda' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Wigby ($100 in chips)
Seat 2: appa64 ($80.35 in chips)
Seat 3: ahula ($39.65 in chips)
Seat 5: gilhouse ($34.20 in chips)
Seat 6: Lawyer1333 ($119.55 in chips)
Seat 7: buchrat ($39.70 in chips)
Seat 9: FlyingSaucy ($106.40 in chips)
Lawyer1333: posts small blind $0.50
buchrat: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to FlyingSaucy [Ks Kh]
FlyingSaucy: raises $2 to $3
Wigby: folds
appa64: calls $3
ahula: calls $3
gilhouse: folds
Lawyer1333: calls $2.50
buchrat: calls $2
*** FLOP *** [6h 7h 9h]
Lawyer1333: checks
buchrat: checks
FlyingSaucy: bets $6
appa64: raises $6 to $12
ahula: folds
Lawyer1333: calls $12
buchrat: folds
FlyingSaucy:
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badape
Old 12-05-2006, 09:34 PM #3 (permalink)  

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I would fold here, you're up against 5 players so there's no way your K-Ks are good. Someone could have a flush made, an ace high flush draw, 2 pairs, trips, straight draw. You bet out 6 dollars and one player mini-raise you to 12(very fishy, I think he's trying to extract the most out of the pot), another person calls the 12(maybe trips trying to pair the board, maybe ace high flush draw). Just fold this hand and wait for a better opportunity. Even if you catch your flush in the turn/river you're still prolly not good. If however the flop was ace rag rag all hearts I'd considered calling a bet on the flop and maybe even the turn to see if you can catch your flush.
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Margin Of Error
Old 12-05-2006, 11:56 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Id call and spike the ace of hearts on the turn. Or I would fold.
She looked at me and said youz a baby right?
I told her, I'm 18 and live a crazy life
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Fnord
Old 12-06-2006, 12:01 AM #5 (permalink)  
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I'm all-in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Beck
Old 12-06-2006, 01:00 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
I'm all-in.
r u all in cause you have KK and were planning on going all in preflop?
Do u really have fold equity here? against a flush or a set? or even 2 pair?

-beck
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Fnord
Old 12-06-2006, 01:01 AM #7 (permalink)  
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I expect worse hands to call and have outs against better hands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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zenbitz
Old 12-06-2006, 01:53 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
I expect worse hands to call and have outs against better hands.
the problem is the two people in. If one has a better hand (2p set, straight, baby flush) and the other has AhX pair... you are drawing ~dead.

This + bad position (sandwiched no less) convinces me that calling is horrible.

I am not sure I push, because I need either the cold caller or min/raiser to fold and I am not sure they both do.

Also, pot limit - I don't thing you can get your whole stack in on flop.
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FlyingSaucy
Old 12-06-2006, 04:32 AM #9 (permalink)  
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That is exactly what was messing with my head. The fact that there was a minraise and smooth call against my obvious strength (EP raise + cbet on dangerous flop should be pretty easy to read for opps). If he put me on AA-QQ then a minraise is certainly something that is going to mess with my head. So the minraisers range might be wider, but the smooth call is what is even more bothersome because it likely means strong draw (Ah). My feeling was that if the minraiser is simply trying to pull a move, then if I push, the minraiser will fold and the Ah guy is also not likely to call. At least, that was my thought.

Is this a dangerous way to be thinking at this level? Does minraise almost always == donkey playing a strong hand?

Thanks for the thoughts so far, btw
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badape
Old 12-06-2006, 05:11 AM #10 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingSaucy
That is exactly what was messing with my head. The fact that there was a minraise and smooth call against my obvious strength (EP raise + cbet on dangerous flop should be pretty easy to read for opps). If he put me on AA-QQ then a minraise is certainly something that is going to mess with my head. So the minraisers range might be wider, but the smooth call is what is even more bothersome because it likely means strong draw (Ah). My feeling was that if the minraiser is simply trying to pull a move, then if I push, the minraiser will fold and the Ah guy is also not likely to call. At least, that was my thought.

Is this a dangerous way to be thinking at this level? Does minraise almost always == donkey playing a strong hand?

Thanks for the thoughts so far, btw
Mini-raise can only mean two things, the opponent has a huge hand or he has nothing at all, if your heads up against a mini-raise a call wouldn't be a bad play, its the player acting behind the mini-raiser you should be worried about. He prolly has a hand made or a huge draw(ace high with straight)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingSaucy
My feeling was that if the minraiser is simply trying to pull a move, then if I push, the minraiser will fold and the Ah guy is also not likely to call. At least, that was my thought.
My feeling was that the mini-raiser prolly has a set or 2 pairs and he wants to know where hes at by mini-raising. I'm almost certain if you go all in here at least one of the two will call, and if anyone calls you're prolly beat and you're risking about 100 dollars to a 50 dollar pot, and both those players have pretty healthy stack (119.55 and 80.35 in chips).

There are way too many hands on the flop that has you beat, I'd just fold. I seriously doubt your king high flush is good if you spike a heart on the turn anyways.
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badape
Old 12-06-2006, 05:16 AM #11 (permalink)  

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On the side note, if you want to call 6 dollars on the flop to see the turn it would not be bad option either. you're getting the pot odds to draw(another 6 dollars to a 50 dollar pot, correct me if my math is incorrect). See what happens on the turn; if the ace of heart come you have the nuts, if a blank comes you can just call it down/fold.
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zenbitz
Old 12-06-2006, 07:23 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingSaucy
That is exactly what was messing with my head. The fact that there was a minraise and smooth call against my obvious strength (EP raise + cbet on dangerous flop should be pretty easy to read for opps). If he put me on AA-QQ then a minraise is certainly something that is going to mess with my head. So the minraisers range might be wider, but the smooth call is what is even more bothersome because it likely means strong draw (Ah). My feeling was that if the minraiser is simply trying to pull a move, then if I push, the minraiser will fold and the Ah guy is also not likely to call. At least, that was my thought.
Ah is never folding, at least not enough to matter.
The min/raise is tricky to deal - which is I think why it's so popular.

Quote:
Is this a dangerous way to be thinking at this level? Does minraise almost always == donkey playing a strong hand?
Don't dismiss it as a donk move - because if he got your chips in with a monster, who's the donk? It's probably NOT a bluff, not on this board, with this many opponents. It can sometimes be modest hands (maybe JJ with Jh?) ... or a vulnerable hand (two-pair) trying to isolate or probing to see if someone makes a flush. I am not sure on this hand I am willing to bet $80 to find out.
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FlyingSaucy
Old 12-07-2006, 03:50 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Thanks again for your thoughts.

Here are the results, blah blah...

FlyingSaucy: raises $50.25 to $62.25
appa64: folds
Lawyer1333: folds
FlyingSaucy collected $48.50 from pot
FlyingSaucy: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $51 | Rake $2.50
Board [6h 7h 9h]
Seat 1: Wigby folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: appa64 folded on the Flop
Seat 3: ahula folded on the Flop
Seat 5: gilhouse (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Lawyer1333 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 7: buchrat (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: FlyingSaucy collected ($48.50)
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givememyleg
Old 12-07-2006, 01:24 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 LOL the first hh made me laugh pretty hard.

I think you played this fine.

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