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Standard w/ 56s on Button?

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martindcx1e

04-27-2006, 05:07 AM Post subject: Standard w/ 56s on Button?

#1 (permalink)

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Just checking to make sure my turn call is fine here. I thought my outs were probably clean, and the caller in front of me really helped. Do you call the turn bet w/o the other caller if BB has a full stack?
Note: In case anyone is wondering, my river bet put UTG+1 AI.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($9.80)
SB ($9.95)
BB ($4.75)
UTG ($11.85)
UTG+1 ($8.75)
MP1 ($9.30)
MP2 ($6.75)
CO ($4.55)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6

, 5

.
UTG calls $0.10, UTG+1 calls $0.10, MP1 calls $0.10, MP2 calls $0.10, CO calls $0.10, Hero calls $0.10, 1 fold, BB raises to $0.4, UTG calls $0.30, UTG+1 calls $0.30, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.30, CO folds, Hero calls $0.30.

Flop: ($2.25) 3

, 6

, J

(5 players)
BB bets $0.6, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls $0.60, MP2 folds, Hero calls $0.60.

Turn: ($4.05) Q

(3 players)
BB bets $3.75 (All-In), UTG+1 calls $3.75, Hero calls $3.75.

River: ($15.30) 9

(3 players, 1 all-in)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $4, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: $19.30

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WildBobAA

04-27-2006, 05:35 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Looks good

WhooFleuryScores

04-27-2006, 05:44 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Mid suited connectors are good in LP with limpers.Looks good.

bdawg56kg

04-27-2006, 08:26 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Raise the flop. This is a great situation to semi-bluff and hopefully you will clean up your outs as well. As played, turn call is fine.

gabe

04-27-2006, 03:47 PM

#5 (permalink)

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gabe is an unknown quantity at this point

i raise the flop to $3

jackvance

04-27-2006, 04:00 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Hm I don't quite understand this preflop raise advice.. isn't it better to simply play with many people in the pot on these sorts of drawing hands?

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Myke

04-27-2006, 04:04 PM

#7 (permalink)

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I trust Bob, Gabe, and the rest when they say this hand looked good.

But can someone explain why its a smart move to call the turn AI with mid pair and a flush draw? With another caller in front of you?

gabe

04-27-2006, 04:13 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Myke

But can someone explain why its a smart move to call the turn AI with mid pair and a flush draw? With another caller in front of you?

theres about $11.50 in the pot and its $3.75 to call. thats a good price for a pair and a flush draw.

but i think raising the flop and trying to get allin when you have 2 cards to come is much better

Galapogos

04-27-2006, 04:21 PM

#9 (permalink)

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So Gabe you like to get all in with any pair plus flush draw on the flop?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sauce123

I don't get why you insist on stacking off with like jack high all the time.

gabe

04-27-2006, 04:26 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

So Gabe you like to get all in with any pair plus flush draw on the flop?

in a pot that was raised preflop i think thats fine.

in unraised pots im more cautious.

also, against bad players im more likely to play it slow and try to hit my card because they are more likely to pay me off. against tight players ill just play it like a set and hope they fold their big pair, and if they don't, i still have a good chance at making money.

Galapogos

04-27-2006, 05:45 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

So Gabe you like to get all in with any pair plus flush draw on the flop?

And shortly after this exchange the following ensued...

Seat 1: LocShredder ($60.35 in chips)
Seat 2: Galapogos [AD,10D] ($46 in chips)
Seat 3: Zokio ($56.80 in chips)
Seat 4: clangen ($57.85 in chips)
Seat 5: whichones ($48 in chips)
Seat 6: Waterman999 ($30.30 in chips)
Seat 7: fettleif ($49.25 in chips)
Seat 8: finrobban ($49.55 in chips)
Seat 9: Yettiman17 ($43.40 in chips)
Seat 10: DocktorM ($110.65 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
Yettiman17 posts blind ($0.25), DocktorM posts blind ($0.50).

PRE-FLOP
LocShredder calls $0.50, Galapogos calls $0.50, Zokio folds, clangen folds, whichones folds, Waterman999 folds, fettleif folds, finrobban folds, Yettiman17 calls $0.25, DocktorM checks.

FLOP [board cards KD,8D,AS ]
Yettiman17 checks, DocktorM checks, LocShredder bets $1, Galapogos bets $3, Yettiman17 folds, DocktorM folds, LocShredder bets $10, Galapogos bets $42.50 and is all-in, LocShredder bets $48.85 and is all-in.

TURN [board cards KD,8D,AS,2D ]

RIVER [board cards KD,8D,AS,2D,4D ]

SHOWDOWN
LocShredder shows [ 8H,AC ]
Galapogos shows [ AD,10D ]
LocShredder wins $14.35, Galapogos wins $92.

Yep, I likee!! Pushed a little quickly on the flop but this guy seemed to have no problem calling people's all-ins judging from earlier hands.

THaC

04-27-2006, 06:11 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Woohoo.

gabe

04-27-2006, 06:13 PM

#13 (permalink)

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yea your ATs is a favorite on that flop

jackvance

04-27-2006, 06:25 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Oh damn seems I misread earlier lol.. raise the flop not preflop, yeah I'd do that too.

Quote:

yea your ATs is a favorite on that flop

In this particular hand he was the 52% favorite.. am I the only one who generally likes better odds before a push? :P

Quote:

also, against bad players im more likely to play it slow and try to hit my card because they are more likely to pay me off. against tight players ill just play it like a set and hope they fold their big pair, and if they don't, i still have a good chance at making money

Ok this explains it, guess I'll have to play higher stakes to see the necessity of a push here.

martindcx1e

04-27-2006, 06:48 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jackvance

In this particular hand he was the 52% favorite.. am I the only one who generally likes better odds before a push? :P

If I could go AI an infinite # of times as a 52% favorite on the flop, I'd do it in a heartbeat. In the longrun you make $. Cash games are all about +EV. Tournaments can give you a reason to fold your hand in a 52% situation, but in a cash game you can't pass it up.

EDIT: WHEEEE I'M AN FTR FLUSH!

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dpe8598

04-27-2006, 06:50 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Agreed, and as I mentioned in a post on another thread, you are making additional money when the other guy folds, which typically represents a sig. percent of the time. Furthermore, its great for your image to be seen as a guy that pushes chips in the middle easily.

martindcx1e

04-27-2006, 06:58 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Can anyone tell me how to estimate fold equity when using poker stove? Like if a situation is 49/51 then FE would makie it +EV correct? How much % can FE add?

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dpe8598

04-27-2006, 07:35 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Your not just looking for a percentage here, because you also have to consider how much is already in the pot. Here is a quick example though.

Lets say there is a preflop raise to 5 and it is you and 1 other player in the pot. You both started off w/ 100 dollars. There is 10 in the pot.

Now lets say that you are in position and after the flop you have a 48% chance of winning by the river. Forget about the cards, lets work w/ numbers.

He raises 1.5 times the pot to 15. There is now 25 in the pot. You have 90 and you push all in. There is now 115 in the pot. Lets do the math.

Lets assume that he is strong, but not perfect so he folds 10% of the time. Personally, I think he folds a lot more than this, but lets just say 15%.

So, 10% of the time your move makes you 25 dollars.
.10 * 25 = +2.5

The other 90% of the time he calls you. You win 48% of that time which translate to 43.2% of the total time. Here you have put in 95 to win 105.

.432 * 105 = +45.36

52% of the time you bet he beats you. This translates to 46.8% of the total time. Here you lose 95. Remember, you dont calculate what you've already put in the pot.

.468 * 95 = -44.46

Lets put them together
-44.46 + 45.36 + 2.5 = + 3.40 EV

I admit that w/ rake this puts you at about even. However, I just demonstrated that you can get a positive EV play by pushing w/ a strong draw even when you underestimate his fold percentage. Overall, if you are above 50% and you think there is any chance at all that he might fold, you are +EV to push. Lets not also forget what moves like this do for your image and how much they increase your action on strong hands.

dpe8598

04-27-2006, 07:39 PM

#19 (permalink)

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One more thing, I also underestimated how much is already in the pot. This move is most useful when there is already a ton of money in the pot. Take it! I also think that it is more profitable to limp or raise small when there isn't already a lot of money in the pot.

jackvance

04-27-2006, 07:50 PM

#20 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by dpe8598

I admit that w/ rake this puts you at about even. However, I just demonstrated that you can get a positive EV play by pushing w/ a strong draw even when you underestimate his fold percentage. Overall, if you are above 50% and you think there is any chance at all that he might fold, you are +EV to push. Lets not also forget what moves like this do for your image and how much they increase your action on strong hands.

Basically, I did all the math too and such, but in practice I simply lost a lot less money when I played them calmer rather than push. So I don't contest it's not +EV, but it's only slightly so and has high variance. The other option is higher +EV and less variance (since I take a look first whether I hit or not before investing more), or so I learned in practice.

gabe

04-27-2006, 08:06 PM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Can anyone tell me how to estimate fold equity when using poker stove? Like if a situation is 49/51 then FE would makie it +EV correct? How much % can FE add?

FE can add 100% if you know they always fold. It adds 0 if they always call.

FE is something you have to judge, its really unquantifiable.

martindcx1e

04-27-2006, 09:12 PM

#22 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by gabe

Quote:

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Can anyone tell me how to estimate fold equity when using poker stove? Like if a situation is 49/51 then FE would makie it +EV correct? How much % can FE add?

FE can add 100% if you know they always fold. It adds 0 if they always call.

FE is something you have to judge, its really unquantifiable.

Ya I don't know why I even asked since it's pretty read-dependant.

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salsa4ever

04-30-2006, 02:23 AM

#23 (permalink)

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Dead money + Fold Equity + Table image + 52% equity EVEN IF CALLED makes the push ++++EV

I'm willing to go with 40-45% pot equity if called in these situations because of those three considerations

The only exception is if you're playing against a total fish who will make a 1/2 pot bet or below AND pay off your hand when you hit it AND does not know where the fold button is do I consider anything else.

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Originally Posted by salsa4ever

well courtie, since we're both clear, would you accept an invitation for some unprotected sex?

salsa4ever

04-30-2006, 02:29 AM

#24 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jackvance

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpe8598

that is weak tight.

Weak tight = scared to put money into the pot without a very strong hand = waiting to see if you hit first.

Remember that your opponent is just as scared of variance and putting his chips into the pot in a marginal situation as you are. He doesn't know you're a 52% favorite. For all he knows you could have a set and he's a 10-90 underdog. Don't be afraid of variance. I don't like variance either, but the fact I can handle it better and cope with more of it than my opponents means variance is my friend.

I'm not saying weak tight can't make money, because it can. You can crush up to 25NL playing weak tight.

jackvance

04-30-2006, 03:32 AM

#25 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by salsa4ever

I'm not saying weak tight can't make money, because it can. You can crush up to 25NL playing weak tight.

Yes, I guess that was sort of what I was trying to say. Weak/tight works on the lower limits, so why use a more variance playstyle if it's not yet necessary?

I'm really inclined (by personality) to play the Lagg style - mix some suited connectors/gappers/pps into my raising hands, floating, etc; Playing strong on your two pair and better, and also draws, etc - and I'd do nothing rather than play this way (even though I still have heaps to learn about it) and I'm getting some success with it at the tables with more thinking players, but generally.. alas weak/tight is simply safer and easier to make money on 10NL/20NL..

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