Standard? Missed a bet?

ummm i think i would have to reraise the flop or turn to see where im at...

did he have a 2?

Originally Posted by bearcats05

ummm i think i would have to reraise the flop or turn to see where im at...

I think this hand clearly illustrates where we differ in opinions. Any plan that involves the word "fold" doesn't sound very good to me.

I would raise the turn to about $18-20. He didn't slow down a bit when the K came off, so I'm assuming hes betting the flop trying to get you off high cards or a steal when rags came off. When he bet out on turn with the K I would go ahead and think he backed in to the K, or maybe even 2 pr KT. If he calls my raise, and checks to me, I believe i'll be dropping the hammer.

If he calls my raise and bets out again, I'm probably calling hoping he has KT/K9.

If he gets all in on the turn, well I'm either going broke or doubling up, I'm not laying it down with a pair of 2's that could destroy his 2 pair.

I think you should have taken control of the hand on the turn.

Originally Posted by Symbolic

I think you should have taken control of the hand on the turn.

How does this either make or save me money?

I will however agree that if I had a stronger read or expected to play with this guy a lot, a raise begins to make more sense...

I also enjoy an aggressive table image.


This move will save you no money, if he has the goods you will lose more this way for sure (unless its his 2 pair that he somehow still thinks is strong and bets the river with).

I do feel this way if he just calls / checks you will be able to get a call on the river from somebody who is playing his hand this aggressively.

I understand your line on the hand, and it makes sense, but I guess I just like having to give my opponents more to think about.

Also, a river raise wouldn't be out of the realm of possibilities. I know for a fact if i had a deuce or a fullhouse I would value bet harder than he did on the river, pot or maybe even a little more. There are no noticable draws you could be on, so he must think you have something worth calling for. I would like your insight in to why you played the hand the way you did though.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Folded to me and I raise A A on the button up to $3 because I'm just looking to take an easy buck fifty in blind money.

I don't know if you're serious or not, but this is why I make it $5 preflop to play here...Meat-heads will call $2 here with practically anything. You never defined your hand, and you didn't make him define his, you don't know if you're beat here or if you could get some serious cash from this.

Plus, raising to $5 looks more like "OMFG I AM BETTING FIVE DOLLARS I WANT YOUR BLIND MONEY FOLD FOLD FOLD" so any weak ten or king that calls here will play back at you hardcore when you raise on any later street.

If they don't want to play back at you then you win the blind money, which was your original goal in the first place (although I'm not sure I want to believe that).

Originally Posted by Fnord

Folded to me and I raise A A on the button up to $3 because I'm just looking to take an easy buck fifty in blind money.

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

I don't know if you're serious or not

I think Fnord wants them to think he is blind stealing so they play back at him. . . that's how i read it.

I'd mini raise the river looking for a call. Apart from that i play it the same i think

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

I'd mini raise the river looking for a call. Apart from that i play it the same i think

If he pushes I think you have to call though...

Originally Posted by Ultimate George

I don't know if you're serious or not, but this is why I make it $5 preflop to play here...Meat-heads will call $2 here with practically anything

Some thoughts:
o $5 gets a fold from even the meat-heads a lot
o I can't profitably raise to $5 with a wide range against an unknown.
o I like mediocre players playing weak hands out of position against me. I think I have a big post-flop skill edge.
o A lot of players fold their trash often enough for $3 for some nice insta-profit against the tighter ones.
o $10 pre-flop + a c-bet of say $7ish isn't going to leave you as much room to play poker as a $6 pre-flop + a c-bet of $4. Particularly since the guy more likely to make a loose call for $4 is likely to have a $40-$50ish stack.
o I'm ok with undefined hands.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Originally Posted by bearcats05

ummm i think i would have to reraise the flop or turn to see where im at...

I think this hand clearly illustrates where we differ in opinions. Any plan that involves the word "fold" doesn't sound very good to me.

where did i say anything about folding?

yes fnord
If he pushes i think its a call every time. Your hand has to be disguised and even a thinking player would find it tough putting you on a premium like AA here.
I think, with thestyle of play you adopt from the numerous posts ive read by you that post flop lay is definatly a major advantage to you, so dropping AA or playing it only for a $3 raise on the button is the most +ev move imo.
Raiing it big allows less room for post flop play with money behind, taing away *some* of the edge you hold post flop.

Yeah, this really comes down to "Do you want to play a $100 pot?" At the time, my answer was no and was quite happy to take down a $50 pot. I'm re-thinking that, and think I'm still getting the best of it if all the money goes into the pot absent a read.

BTW, he had T 9

MHIG

Interesting hand. I don't mind calling the $2 flop bet, since it makes you look really weak, which is a good thing. The turn K sucks, and I think calling there is appropriate, given that you called the flop bet. I hate raising the turn since it scares a ten away most of the time. I probably wouldn't raise the river just because I don't think you get called by a weaker hand enough times to make it a profitable raise (although villians short stack makes a raise very tempting). Smooth call, smooth call, river raise after a 1/2 pot bet usually is never a bluff, especially when villian has roughly 40% of his stack in the pot already. Hence I think villian drops any hand less than trips to a river raise.

I think your line is fine, although another alternative might be to raise the flop, say to $7-8. Then check behind on the turn or call a bet, and pot the river. This is dependent on your table image, and how aggressive you are at taking down pots on the flop and bluffing on later streets. I really would have no problem playing for stacks since villian has only 64BB.

And to all those that think Fnord should have raised somewhere to take control/find out where he's at, I think that this concept is important and effective at lower stakes like 25NL and such, where a lot of the time you are dealing with calling stations that cant look beyond their own 2 cards. At a little higher stakes, the opponents can think a bit more and you have to be more creative in how you play your top pair and overpair hands. Basically what I'm saying is that going full blast and raising every street might not be the most effective way to maximize value for the hand. Sometimes you have to slow it down a little and give villian that little bit of rope he needs to hang himself.

Im just curious why the K is looked at as such bad card. Is it simply because he bet out when the T22 flop came out? There is no sarcasm in this post, I am curious why you see the K as a kill action card (which it turned out to be on the turn), after he called a $3 raise.

I guess I just dont understand being more passive the higher up in limits you go up to, seems counter-intuitive to me. Yes you need to extend rope for people to hand themselves with, but by just calling the flop and turn you are keeping the pot relatively small, and making it easier for somebody to get away from a 2 pair if you come out betting too big on the river.

Consider that one of these is true:
I have 2 outs
He has 2 outs
He's drawing dead

Over the long run, we want to get money into the pot when we have the best of it and save money when we don't.

Originally Posted by Symbolic

I am curious why you see the K as a kill action card (which it turned out to be on the turn).

He's repping Tx, maybe Ax or a pocket pair with his weak lead. A king may have hit my hand (good chance I have a couple big cards here and just called to draw) and sucked out on him.

also added more to my post that you replied to, interested in getting a good thread going on a raise, I might be overusing it.

As you move up, your non-maniac opponents get more aggressive and the maniacs start to learn how to fold and slow down.

Hence, to it becomes correct to call more often.

If you suspect someone is bluffing with very few outs, you'll make more money drawing a bigger bet on the next street because a raise induces a fold or at best a crying call. If you suspect they're making a move on the flop with lots of outs, you really shut them down by just calling and putting them to the test after they miss the turn and continue to blast away.

I think bdawg56kg hit the nail on the head so to speak here.
We have to give opp enough rope to hang himself, but also that he has enough of an edge in holding Tx to exploit against us to get him to bet. Cold calling when the board shows nothing that is LIKELY to beat us is the most -ev play. Unless you can really get opp to play back at you with Tx on the flop, and you need to find the right opponent for that play. I agree that the river king kills most action but checking behind offers opp another reason to bet and hang himself more.

I would often play it exactly like this. Ni han. One of the biggest pots I've taken down recently with a simple big pair was by playing passively like this, in position, and letting an aggressive opponent string himself up. One thing you know for sure - someone who calls a raise pre-flop and then bets into you on all three streets, constantly escalating his bet amounts, is unlikely to have anything that beats your overpair. Therefore any action that gets him to stop betting may be a bad action.

I wouldn't raise on the flop or turn knowing that he'll keep firing at the pot. He bets big on the river where as if we had raised on fourth street he would've slowed down. I'd make a very small raise, just more than the minimum to induce a call. As you mentioned he is a tight player so 2x is unlikely, and we can only be afraid of a set. In a heads up situation following a button raise I think his hand range is very wide. He would probably check to you if he flopped a full house knowing you'll make a standard c-bet. I think you lost value by not raising the river though.

He bet weak on the flop which appears to mean he has a pair but is a little worried about an overpair or a better kicker. He stepped it up on the turn, betting the scare card which is odd since if you were chasing with AK you just beat him. He's not likely to call a raise there given that he seems to have a weak holding, so your call is good.
The river -- did you miss a bet - tough to tell really - as Miffed said, maybe a min-raise would get called - but with just a weak pair and the K on the turn it's not all that likely. Your call was probably good here too - there's no way you're beat in this hand, and you can't really extract much more money out of it either I don't think. Looks well-played.