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Fnord
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03-28-2005, 11:57 AM
Post subject: The spots being the table bully gets you into
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
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Limper: $227.44
BB: $207.13
Me: $631.95
I had been pounding on these guys pretty hard and have won a couple showdowns with real stinkers when my flop bet got called and it pretty much got checked down. BB is loose/passive and no one has really been playing back at me yet.
One limper to me. I'm on the button with  
I raise to $8, sb folds, BB calls.
3 to the flop, $23.75 in the pot
  
checked to me and I bet $20, BB pushes, limper folds, I really want to call here because this bet screams draw, but fold.
What would you do?
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Cocco_Bill
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,254
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I fold here. I am too chicken to make these big calls 
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 2,361
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i'm chicken too. if there were even one club out there i might go.
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SavX
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 30
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I fold.. maybe he hit a set?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by SavX
I fold.. maybe he hit a set?
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Comming from the big blind, I think there is a lower chance of him having a pocket pair here.
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ilikeaces86
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,141
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BB shows 89 spades. Still want to call?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
BB shows 89 spades. Still want to call?
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You're giving him too much credit comming in from the BB against a known aggro player. I seriously doubt he has both draws.
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TylerK
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03-28-2005, 02:47 PM
Post subject: Re: The spots being the table bully gets you into
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#8 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
BB is loose/passive
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What hands have you seen him call a PFR with? What kinds of hands is he showing down in general? What kinds of hands will he raise the flop with?
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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Fnord
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03-28-2005, 02:51 PM
Post subject: Re: The spots being the table bully gets you into
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#9 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by TylerK
What hands have you seen him call a PFR with? What kinds of hands is he showing down in general? What kinds of hands will he raise the flop with?
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I put him on a pretty wide range here. The table has been calling pre-flop with crap then bailing on the flop. He really hasn't shown any spine up until now...
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JeffreyGB
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03-28-2005, 03:24 PM
Post subject: Re: The spots being the table bully gets you into
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#10 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Jenks, OK
Posts: 3,477
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I put him on a pretty wide range here. The table has been calling pre-flop with crap then bailing on the flop. He really hasn't shown any spine up until now...
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Any specific reason to think that his spine is unrelated to his cards? Often such a change in behavior indicates good cards to me. I agree with the laydown; he could have one or both draws or even have gotten a sweet BB special and have you out-kicked (unless he'd have reraised preflop, which sounds unlikely).
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by SavX
I fold.. maybe he hit a set?
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Ugh.
Ugh!
UGH!
Just becuase they're pushing does not mean they always have the goods. Drop the weak/tightedness.
He's a known table bully who will raise thin. I'd laugh if he has the set.
-'rilla
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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TylerK
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03-28-2005, 03:39 PM
Post subject: Re: The spots being the table bully gets you into
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#12 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME
Posts: 1,791
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JeffreyGB
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
I put him on a pretty wide range here. The table has been calling pre-flop with crap then bailing on the flop. He really hasn't shown any spine up until now...
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Any specific reason to think that his spine is unrelated to his cards? Often such a change in behavior indicates good cards to me. I agree with the laydown; he could have one or both draws or even have gotten a sweet BB special and have you out-kicked (unless he'd have reraised preflop, which sounds unlikely). |
I agree. Either he has you outkicked with semi-crap, or his real crap just turned into not-crap.
When the fish start raising it's usually time to get out of the way.
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TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
He's a known table bully who will raise thin. I'd laugh if he has the set.
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Ummm... I'm the table bully...
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Oh. Woopsy
-'rilla
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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storm75m
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: 6MAX-NL - Houston
Posts: 401
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he probably just has ace rag, and is tired of your crap and wants to show some strenght... could've maybe hit two pair... When you say you're the bully, are you pretty much raising almost everything pre-flop? People tend to break down at some point against these types of players (i know I have several times) and just decide to push with a mediocre hand.
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Lack of Discipline and Over-Confidence... The root of all poker evil.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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That looks like an easy fold to me. Get him next time when you have the goods.
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face
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 187
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Let me begin by saying I'm a rank beginner, so I might be hugely off base here, but I don't understand why his bet screams draw here. If you were in the BB and had pocket 7s or 6s, and you knew the button raiser was the table bully, wouldn't you play exactly the same way preflop hoping to cash on his overaggression if you hit your set? Also, if this guy is weak/passive, why do you think he would all of a sudden agg up with a spade draw here? Of course, it is possible that he has a lower ace or suited paint, or even the OESD/flush draw proposed above, and in the first case you're a 65/35 favorite and in the second you're a slight dog. Having been on both sides of the bully dichotomy, I am always very wary (and conversely very eager when bullied) of calling a huge checkraise from a weak/tight -- especially when I have been seen calling down big raises with moderate/strong holdings -- unless I have a really strong hand. As the bully, you are the prime target of everyone at the table. Although this might mean people are more likely to bluff at you, they are also much more likely to camp and take you down for a huge pot with the nuts. I think a big part of sucessfully playing the bully is to recognize both possibilities, and to make exactly this kind of laydown in marginal situations, especially when it's the first big show of aggression by another player at the table. You pick up enough small pots that you can afford to pay off a bluff/semi-bluff here anyway.
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mimmons775
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 92
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fold
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"I guess if there wasnt luck involved id win everyone."
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Spandrel
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 37
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I think his bet screams pocket A-6 or A-7 with two pair on the flop. Most likely, he will take that two pair to his grave.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by mimmons775
fold
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Why?
'rilla
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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a500lbgorilla
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JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: This room is a good place to be
Posts: 8,379
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Spandrel
I think his bet screams pocket A-6 or A-7 with two pair on the flop. Most likely, he will take that two pair to his grave.
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Especially against a table bully.
But I don't think it quite screams two pair.
Against a super aggro opp, most people will just call here and raise the turn.
With a straight or flush draw, he's definitly taking the big semi-bluff and trying to show you that you need to stop betting.
-'rilla
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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
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Ayce
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Good fold.
You are either at a small advantage or are a big dog, you do the math.
I am most often the person sitting like the BB and rolling over until I hit. A good LAG folds, a bad one calls.
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EddieBoy
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Corona California
Posts: 125
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I also say fold. Im almost certain u'r outkicked to his AJ or AT, if not, he's hit the 2 pair. I'd think it rare for the BB to checkraise w/out SOME kind of hand, especially against the bully.. Hell, as loose as the table is being described, he coulda called ther raise at a "bb discount" with 67suited......
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Yeahhhh mannnnnn
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Admerylous
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Delaware
Posts: 108
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Against a super aggro opp, most people will just call here and raise the turn.
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I am not so sure of that. Against the table bully a lot of people want to stand up for themselves as soon as they get a moderate piece and turn the aggression onto them. I would say most people hoping to extract the most out of a super aggro opp will just call and raise over on the turn, but when upset by a table bully I tend to see people get extremely aggressive when they have the opportunity.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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it's possible they have a weaker ace....is a raise out of the question?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by hypermegachi
it's possible they have a weaker ace....is a raise out of the question?
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He pushed, it's a call or fold.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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bleh, i read it as they bet $20, not you....it's late and i need sleep!
i think it's the easiest fold ever then. even if they are buying the pot, it's too expensive to find out what they have. plus it's from a fish. fish don't fight back...they call.
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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Fnord, you sound like you are on a limit game and the guy just reraised you one more big bet. How you can even contemplate a call in this spot is beyond me. Anything he is reraising you all in with, which is probably ~180 dollar call for you, is way better than what you are holding.
Your preflop raise was a small mistake. You bet the flop as if you were holding AK or AQ. Now you get raised AI---you gotta cut your losses on this crappy hand and move on.
Now, what would you do if you are holding AK in that spot? Do you call then? I'm all about pushing all in with a hand like AK with that board, but calling someone else's is a totally different situation. No fold equity in calling.
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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This looks like "The Hammer" as discussed by Dan Harrington in Harrington on Holdem. I'd give him credit for an Ace at least. Thing is, with the 7 and 6 on the flop, your odds of having him outkicked go down by 33%. A6 - AJ seem like reasonable possibilities, all of which are bad for you.
I'd take a deep breath, realize there are better spots to get my stack in, and fold.
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lonnie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 923
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Fnord, the other side of this 'should I call' scenario. Don't do what my opp did.
Pacific $100 NL
BB - 93.00
lhoney2 - 112.00
CO - 93.00
I limp  from UTG.
Total of 6 players limp to the flop.
Flop:
 
I flop the set, but this is a trouble board, I need to play this fast and hopefully get someone to make a BIG mistake here. SB and BB check to me. This is going to be an action flop, and I anticipate getting raised, as two of the LP players have been quite aggro.
I bet out 5.00 into a 5.70 pot...this is begging to get raised.
CO flat calls, and BB makes it 20
I got check raised! Exactly what I wanted. This sucker now has 21 dollars invested in the pot on what I presume to either be a somewhat dry Ace or a flush draw.
I push all-in and make it 117 to go...CO promptly folds. My mark thinks for a few seconds then call off the rest of his stack (67.40). If he is on the flush draw, he is paying way too much for it. No matter the results, I got all of his money in on an inferior hand.
Turn and river inocuous:
 
BB shows:
lhoney2 wins pots, $182
Don't be THAT guy Fnord!!
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ensign_lee
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: The University of TEXAS at Austin
Posts: 2,237
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Yeah. Being table bully can really bite you in the ass.
I raised it up with K 10 and the other guy had AK
We both hit a king.
I played it like a set because he was showing strength, but not too much strength...and promptly dumped $150 in a $200 NL game... 
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lolzzz_321
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NO YOU
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: My ice is polarized
Posts: 2,797
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
That looks like an easy fold to me. Get him next time when you have the goods.
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agr33t 
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03-30-2005, 08:12 PM
Post subject: Re: The spots being the table bully gets you into
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#33 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
BB is loose/passive
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That is the very reason I fold here.
You can make a pretty good assumption that he must have something (relatively) good if he is actually playing back at you big time.
This is also a VERY tight edge to be pushing, I wait for a better spot here.
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Greedo017
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: wearing the honors of honor and whatnot
Posts: 1,461
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i just don't see enough hands that you're beating here. you might have him beat, its not unreasonable to think you do, but to me that would be a senseless risk. i fold.
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