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Fnord

07-07-2004, 04:51 PM Post subject: Some interesting laydown decisions...

#1 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

...what's your next move on these hands?

Hand 1

BB has a clue
SB is fishy, calls with any pair/draw.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

UTG ($11.35)
Fnord ($50.85)
CO ($40.22)
Button ($28.35)
SB ($32.71)
BB ($42.10)

Preflop: Fnord is MP with J

, A

.
UTG folds, Fnord raises to $1.5, CO calls $1.50, Button folds, SB calls $1.25, BB calls $1.

Flop: ($6) J

, 6

, 8

(4 players)
SB bets $1, BB calls $1, Fnord raises to $5, CO folds, SB calls $4, BB calls $4.

Turn: ($21) T

(3 players)
SB checks, BB bets $5, Fnord ???

Hand 2

CO has a clue.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Button ($18.25)
Fnord ($24.50)
BB ($34.80)
UTG ($32.60)
MP ($41.21)
CO ($27.42)

Preflop: Fnord is SB with A

, J

.
UTG calls $0.50, MP calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, Button folds, Fnord completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($2.50) 6

, 2

, A

(5 players)
Fnord checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, CO bets $2, Fnord raises to $6, BB folds, UTG folds, MP folds, CO raises to $26.92 (All-In), Fnord ???

Hand 3

SB is very fishy, calls with any pair/draw.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

UTG ($26.60)
Fnord ($31.05)
Button ($59.07)
SB ($22)
BB ($48.75)

Preflop: Fnord is CO with 9

, A

.
UTG folds, Fnord raises to $1.5, Button folds, SB calls $1.25, BB folds.

Flop: ($3.50) 2

, 9

, Q

(2 players)
SB bets $1, Fnord raises to $3, SB calls $2.

Turn: ($9.50) K

(2 players)
SB checks, Fnord checks.

River: ($9.50) 2

(2 players)
SB bets $2, Fnord ???

Hand 4

UTG is loose, but otherwise solid

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 max, 4 handed) converter

Fnord ($29.40)
UTG ($30.75)
Button ($24.20)
SB ($34.05)

Preflop: Fnord is BB with Q

, K

.
UTG calls $0.50, Button folds, SB completes, Fnord checks.

Flop: ($1.50) 5

, 8

, Q

(3 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets $2, UTG calls $2, SB folds.

Turn: ($5.50) 9

(2 players)
Fnord bets $4, UTG calls $4.

River: ($13.50) 7

(2 players)
Fnord checks, UTG bets $6, Fnord ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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scgolfer

07-07-2004, 05:03 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2004

Posts: 629

Those are some tough decisions.
#1 I call
#2 I Fold
#3 I call
#4 I call

Are you going to tell us what you did, and what they had?

Holy crap I cant play against Yoda!!

jmrogers7

07-07-2004, 05:15 PM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Feb 2004

Posts: 1,112

#1 - I think BB held Q9 and caught his straight, but I have to see it to believe it - CALL
#2 - I think CO limped in with A2 or A6 and flopped 2 pair - FOLD
#3 - I ran into a player like SB yesterday - CALL
#4 - Based on your assessment of UTG being loose/solid I think he held the 6 (maybe A6s or A6o or K6s) - FOLD

"The urge to gamble is so universal and it's practice is so pleasurable, that I assume it must be evil." - Heywood Broun

Fnord

07-07-2004, 05:48 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by scgolfer

Are you going to tell us what you did, and what they had?

Well I was going to until you asked...

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmrogers7

#1 - I think BB held Q9 and caught his straight, but I have to see it to believe it - CALL

SB will probably do the detective work for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmrogers7

#2 - I think CO limped in with A2 or A6 and flopped 2 pair - FOLD

If he has 2 pair, how much money would I save by folding? Isn't the standard Party Poker two pair line to call the flop and put me all-in on the turn? *chuckle*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

DaNutsInYoEye

07-07-2004, 06:25 PM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: St. Louis

Posts: 1,921

#1 FOLD - I disagree w/jmrogers... If the BB is a decent is a decent player like you said I wouldn't put him on a straight. Calling a bet 3xBB bet with Q9 is somewhat questionable even if you happen to be the BB already. If he did indeed have Q9 would a solid player call your raise to $5 on the turn with a gutshot? I would either put him on JT or a set. To me JT would be the most likely knowing nothing about this player other than he has a clue.

-JT would justify him calling the pre-flop raise. His call for $1 w/ a mediocre kicker was more of a feeler to see how you would bet behind him. His called your raise because he still had top pair and perhaps thought you were trying to buy it since you had position.

-If he had a set then his pocket pair would justify calling your pre-flop raise. Again his call of $1 was more of a feeler to see how you would bet. You raise but since he hit his set he calls the raise. The 10 comes on the turn making a possible straight/2 pair/etc. Rather than risk being drawn out on the river he decides to try and end it there hence his more aggressive bet.

#2 FOLD - Everyone limped in so they could have just about anything. I agree with scgolfer and jmrogers on this one and would put CO on two pair(A2, A6) or more likely a set. If he had AQ or AK I would've expected a pre-flop raise, especially one off the button. His initial $2 bet was perhaps to milk the pot with 4 people checking before him. You then showed strength and he thought maybe he could get you to go all-in.

#3 CALL - I think he has a pair of nines in which case you would most likely out kick him. If he had a Q I'd think he'd bet it stronger. The $1 was a feeler bet with second pair. He calls your raise because like you said he calls with any pair. He thinks he may be beat after the turn with the 2 overs on the board so he checks in front of you. You check as well which leaves him to believe his 9's may still be good. I'd call, even possibly raise.

#4 Could go either way with this one. I'd probably CALL though. He's UTG but since he is loose he maybe be seeing the flop for cheap with Q9, Q7. Maybe he only has a pair of Q's though and thinks you're chasing the flush. Obviously playing four handed you have to be much more aggressive and perhaps that is what he is doing.

Quote:

If he has 2 pair, how much money would I save by folding? Isn't the standard Party Poker two pair line to call the flop and put me all-in on the turn? *chuckle*

Didn't consider this in my initial analysis... But yeah, that seems to be standard operating procedure at the $25 tables on Party.

TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?

michael1123

07-07-2004, 09:11 PM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Rochester Hills, MI

Posts: 1,720

Without looking at the previous replies:

#1 - This is a tough one, but I'm pretty sure he has you. JT? TT? Q9s? They would be iffy calls on the flop (unless its Q9 of clubs). But on the turn, he knows you have a strong hand. He wouldn't bet $5 there if he didn't have you beat, since you're likely to call.

#2 - This is a much easier fold. AK, AQ, two pair, and a set beats you. Run.

#3 - Pot odds justify this call, even if they do probably have it. Unless he doesn't bluff at all, just chases and checks when he misses, then you could fold.

#4 - This is another tough one. Either he trapped you with JT, two pair, a set, etc., hit two pair or a straight on the river, or is trying to bluff you out since you checked. But, you're getting more than 3 to 1 for your money. If he bluffs at the river at times, you should call this. Kind of looks like he missed a flush draw, and is now trying to buy the pot.

Humphrind

07-07-2004, 09:45 PM

#7 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2004

Location: Kansas City

Posts: 1,887

Hand 1: Fold. It's possible he didn't get his flush draw and he's trying to steal the pot, but I would think he'd bet bigger in that situation. He possibly made 2 pair, but the straight is a definate concern. Just too many opportunities for him to have a better hand.

Hand 2: Fold. This guy is very confident in something. He wants callers with the $2 raise. He thinks you may call the all-in. I'm expecting trips.

Hand 3: If you think you can execute a bluff, raise. I'm expecting SB to have a Q, the bet's not too big. You may be able to bluff them out by raising and representing trip 2s. (you said SB was very fishy)

hand 4: Fold. This hand screams out that UTG had a 6.

I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.

johnnyawe

07-07-2004, 10:27 PM Post subject: Re: Some interesting laydown decisions...

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2004

Location: San Francisco

Posts: 1,064

Hand 1: Fold. Fairly small bet to call compared to the pot, but you gotta fold here. One of them must have the straight, and they'll be betting out on the river. Even if it is a semi-bluff, are you willing to call if they follow through with a huge river bet?

Hand 2: Fold. Man would that piss me off.. AQ, AK, and two pair is out there: I would fold. Very tough one.

Hand 3: Call. He probably has you but it is worth calling the small bet. Who knows, maybe he is trying to buy it.

Hand 4: Call.

It seems like I lose a lot of money by calling too much with top pair.. Its a tough hand to play.

DrNoChance

07-07-2004, 10:55 PM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2004

Posts: 411

Hand 1: $5 is a weak bet with that pot size. I'd raise here, and then decide where I'm at if he calls/raises. Him having the Str8 is unlikely in a raised pot (Q9??). He may be bluffing with a Str8 or flush draw. It does seem odd, though, that he came to life on the turn when that ten hit the board. He may be slowplaying a set (and stopped slowplaying when the Str8 draw became a bigger threat), or he may have JT for 2 pair (but why call a pre-flop raise with JT?!). I'm guessing it's ATs, he was on a flush draw that missed, but now he's going to try betting his 2nd pair top kicker (and he has outs if you call). You say that the BB isn't a crappy player on this table, but that weak turn bet against a scary board with both a Str8 and flush draw has me wondering. I've put him on ATs or KJo/s, possibly JT (ouch if it's this). Raise, and take it from there.

Hand 2: Somewhat possible he has Kxs for the nut flush draw and is semi-bluffing here, but that's a bad play without overcards to the board. I'm guessing he hit two pair with Ax. He's overbetting the pot to look like he's trying to buy it, and with your money in the pot already and a flush draw on board he could care less if everyone folds, but he'd like a caller. I can't fold this one quick enough. Fold!

Hand 3: You say this guy is pretty fishy, so something like J9 isn't out of the question. You should be beaten, no question. This guy apparently could be playing T9s or J9o....you're still beaten most likely. He could be bluffing at a missed flush draw, but that $2 just screams value bet, not steal attempt. It may still be worth another $2 to call, maybe not. I'd put him on a QT or QJ that got scared a bit by the King on the turn. Bah, I'd call...only because of how fishy you're making him out to be. I'd hope that he's bluffing a missed draw after your turn check. I sure as hell wouldn't raise. Call, but be prepared to lose that $2.

Hand 4: I'm not sure I'd fold this. You say UTG is loose, but solid. Solid to me means not chasing a Str8 draw, so I've put him on something with the Queen. Let's just hope it's not some crap Qx 2 pair hand, and that it's QJ/QT instead. How loose is loose? Would he play any suited Queen? Is 2 pair that likely? Unlike what many others have said, I feel the Str8 is unlikely if he's loose but solid, unless it's Q6s. Call.

Fnord

07-08-2004, 10:45 AM

#10 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

BTW, great answers guys. I loved the details on why you would call/fold.

Hand 1

I raised pre-flop, SB bet into me. I raised the flop and the BB value bets into me on the turn. Either he really liked that Ten or he's trapping. I figured the BB for 2 pair, straight or set, and who the #$*% knows what the SB has. Between the chance I'm drawing dead and a second player that I'm going to have to show the winning hand to and I decided to lay this one down.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

UTG ($11.35)
Fnord ($50.85)
CO ($40.22)
Button ($28.35)
SB ($32.71)
BB ($42.10)

Preflop: Fnord is MP with J

, A

.
UTG folds, Fnord raises to $1.5, CO calls $1.50, Button folds, SB calls $1.25, BB calls $1.

Flop: ($6) J

, 6

, 8

(4 players)
SB bets $1, BB calls $1, Fnord raises to $5, CO folds, SB calls $4, BB calls $4.

Turn: ($21) T

(3 players)
SB checks, BB bets $5, Fnord folds, SB calls $5.

River: ($31) K

(2 players)
SB checks, BB bets $5, SB calls $5.

Final Pot: $41

Results in white below:
SB shows Js 5c (one pair, jacks).
BB shows 8d Ts (two pair, tens and eights).
Outcome: BB wins $41.

Hand 2
If he's got 2 pair, the pot is already big and I got outs. No way he puts me on a Jack kicker limping in from the SB. So, I figure he shows me a flush draw (he's probably capable of this semi-bluff) or weaker Ace often enough to make this call. Had to think about it for a bit and brace for the worst, but it worked out.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Button ($18.25)
Fnord ($24.50)
BB ($34.80)
UTG ($32.60)
MP ($41.21)
CO ($27.42)

Preflop: Fnord is SB with A

, J

.
UTG calls $0.50, MP calls $0.50, CO calls $0.50, Button folds, Fnord completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($2.50) 6

, 2

, A

(5 players)
Fnord checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, CO bets $2, Fnord raises to $6, BB folds, UTG folds, MP folds, CO raises to $26.92 (All-In), Fnord calls $18 (All-In).

Turn: ($53.42) 6

(2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($53.42) 3

(2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $53.42

Results in white below:
Fnord shows As Jc (two pair, aces and sixes).
CO shows 5d Ac (two pair, aces and sixes).
Outcome: Fnord wins $50.50. CO wins $2.92.

Hand 3

Simple pot odds. Anyone got a different line on this one?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

UTG ($26.60)
Fnord ($31.05)
Button ($59.07)
SB ($22)
BB ($48.75)

Preflop: Fnord is CO with 9

, A

.
UTG folds, Fnord raises to $1.5, Button folds, SB calls $1.25, BB folds.

Flop: ($3.50) 2

, 9

, Q

(2 players)
SB bets $1, Fnord raises to $3, SB calls $2.

Turn: ($9.50) K

(2 players)
SB checks, Fnord checks.

River: ($9.50) 2

(2 players)
SB bets $2, Fnord calls $2.

Final Pot: $13.50

Results in white below:
SB shows Jd 8d (one pair, twos).
Fnord shows 9h Ah (two pair, nines and twos).
Outcome: Fnord wins $13.50.

Hand 4
Being out of position sucks. $6 was probably a little too much, but dang 96o from UTG?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 max, 4 handed) converter

Fnord ($29.40)
UTG ($30.75)
Button ($24.20)
SB ($34.05)

Preflop: Fnord is BB with Q

, K

.
UTG calls $0.50, Button folds, SB completes, Fnord checks.

Flop: ($1.50) 5

, 8

, Q

(3 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets $2, UTG calls $2, SB folds.

Turn: ($5.50) 9

(2 players)
Fnord bets $4, UTG calls $4.

River: ($13.50) 7

(2 players)
Fnord checks, UTG bets $6, Fnord calls $6.

Final Pot: $25.50

Results in white below:
Fnord shows Qc Kh (one pair, queens).
UTG shows 6d 9h (straight, nine high).
Outcome: UTG wins $25.50.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

07-08-2004, 11:18 AM

#11 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by Humphrind

Hand 2: Fold. This guy is very confident in something. He wants callers with the $2 raise. He thinks you may call the all-in. I'm expecting trips.

$2 into a $2.50 pot is aggression.

My share of the $50.50 pot vs

$7.75 (save $10.25 by folding)

$8.25 (save $9.75 by folding)

$14.15 (save $3.85 by folding)
set I'm pretty much dead

$39.50 (lose $21.50 by folding)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Humphrind

Hand 3: If you think you can execute a bluff, raise. I'm expecting SB to have a Q, the bet's not too big. You may be able to bluff them out by raising and representing trip 2s. (you said SB was very fishy)

A raise would be horrible. Only a better hand calls and my hand beats a busted draw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

DrNoChance

07-08-2004, 03:15 PM

#12 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2004

Posts: 411

Wow, I'm pretty darned impressed that your gutsy call on hand #2 worked out. I don't think anybody here was willing to gamble that he had a weaker ace/flush draw. I'm glad you were right

Hand #1 result has made me start considering that there is such as thing as a value bet on the turn. I saw his weak bet against a draw ridden board as weakness, and I was dead wrong.

Fnord

07-08-2004, 03:40 PM

#13 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrNoChance

Hand #1 result has made me start considering that there is such as thing as a value bet on the turn. I saw his weak bet against a draw ridden board as weakness, and I was dead wrong.

When looking at a bet, consider what the other player wants you to do with their bet. It was pretty clear he wasn't on a flush draw and wanted a call/raise. I guess he couldn't rule out that I was on a flush draw and decided not to go for the check/raise? Then again this is Party 6 max $25NL...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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