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Small PP vs raising smallstacks in MP.

  
 
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d0zer
Old 11-15-2007, 02:23 AM     Post subject: Small PP vs raising smallstacks in MP. #1 (permalink)  
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 Sorry, no HH, I'm just wondering how people play this generally.

You've got a small PP, there's a raiser behind, no callers yet, 4 or 5 players to your left.

In this case, the smallstack had $35 and raised $4. I figured this wasn't justified by the rule of 10 so I folded. But if I had called, it might have encouraged one of the bigstacks to my left to call as well, which would have given me "rule of 10 justification". Since that was speculative, I folded.

Of course I would have had position on him, and might have taken it with a c-bet if he checked...

Thoughts?
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martindcx1e
Old 11-15-2007, 02:58 AM #2 (permalink)  
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the right play is to fold. and just so you know, if someone raises before you they are raising in front, not behind.
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pgil
Old 11-15-2007, 03:57 AM #3 (permalink)  
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don't forget that the "rule of 10" only applies if you think that your opp has a larger PP.

that being said, in MP I would fold this. if it was later and the small stack wasnt a nit, I might be inclined to call and play a flop vs his (hopefully) overcards.
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Fnord
Old 11-15-2007, 06:44 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgil
don't forget that the "rule of 10" only applies if you think that your opp has a larger PP.
You also need to consider your chances of getting free turn/river cards and/or winning the pot without a set.
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d0zer
Old 11-15-2007, 02:26 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgil
don't forget that the "rule of 10" only applies if you think that your opp has a larger PP.
Really?

What's the point of it then? How are you supposed to judge whether or not your opp has a larger PP? Against a TAG, they're often going to be opening AK, AJ, 66, QQ with exactly the same raise so what information are you supposed to use to determine if he's got a PP, never MIND a larger one? By the time it's been re-raised, usually the bet is too big for rule of 10 to apply.

And why wouldn't it apply to villain holding overcards? If you hit your set, and villain hits TPTK, surely you're gunna make enough to make it worth your while to call pre-flop with a small PP?

Or am I way off here?
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martindcx1e
Old 11-15-2007, 02:58 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
By the time it's been re-raised, usually the bet is too big for rule of 10 to apply.

And why wouldn't it apply to villain holding overcards? If you hit your set, and villain hits TPTK, surely you're gunna make enough to make it worth your while to call pre-flop with a small PP?

Or am I way off here?
It's all about how easily villain will pay you off dozer. You hit your set 1 in 8 times. For example, if villain has $100 and the preflop raise is $6 then that means in the longrun you are paying $48 (8 x $6) to hit your set. You then must determine whether or not your opponent is likely to pay off at least that much or not when you hit. The reason pgil said the thing about large pp's is that if villain is raising lots of hands then they are more likely to have a hand that will miss the flop whereas if villain has a really tight raising range then they are more likely to "hit" the flop with their overpair. The way you tell what they are raising is by looking at their stats/analyzing their game. If someone raises 3% of their hands then you can call larger pre-flop raises against them than you can vs. someone who raises 20%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
By the time it's been re-raised, usually the bet is too big for rule of 10 to apply.
Correct so you fold your small pp when this happens. Another thing...when playing people who aren't even guaranteed to stack off with a large overpair post-flop then the 10x rule needs to be changed to something higher like 15x or 20x.
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pgil
Old 11-15-2007, 03:08 PM #7 (permalink)  
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if you hit your set and villain misses completely, you probably arent going to win enough to cover the times you miss your set and end up folding the best hand to his missed AK.

all of the uncertainty is what makes it such a fun game. put your opponent on a range of hands, narrow it down as the hand progresses, and make the best play available based on what you think his current range is.

here's a simple example (although it is pot limit)

PokerStars Pot-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

MP3 ($89.50)
CO ($19.25)
Button ($191.05)
SB ($42.40)
BB ($76.60)
UTG ($181.35)
UTG+1 ($86.60)
MP1 ($88.55)
Hero ($155.75)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9, 9.
UTG raises to $3.5, 2 folds, Hero calls $3.50, 2 folds, Button calls $3.50, 2 folds.

Flop: ($12) 9, 6, J (3 players)
UTG bets $7, Hero raises to $21, Button folds, UTG raises to $63, Hero raises to $152.25, UTG calls $89.25.

Turn: ($316.50) T (2 players)

River: ($316.50) 4 (2 players)

Final Pot: $316.50

this raise from this player in this position is AA 80%, KK/QQ, 15% and AK/AQ/JJ 5% IMO. we are 150 deep, so easy call with position.

I was looking for one that fit your description better, but can't seem to find one. Didn't look too long though, maybe I will find one later.

A lot of the players that I am playing against are not raising their lowest PP's from EP when they open the pot, so that is one way to narrow their range pf. Some players will raise behind limpers from MP with large PP's or a large A, but not medium PP's, so that can help also. You just have to pay attention to what your opponents are doing and adjust your play accordingly.

I got kinda rambly there, but hope it helps some
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d0zer
Old 11-15-2007, 03:46 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
By the time it's been re-raised, usually the bet is too big for rule of 10 to apply.

And why wouldn't it apply to villain holding overcards? If you hit your set, and villain hits TPTK, surely you're gunna make enough to make it worth your while to call pre-flop with a small PP?

Or am I way off here?
It's all about how easily villain will pay you off dozer. You hit your set 1 in 8 times. For example, if villain has $100 and the preflop raise is $6 then that means in the longrun you are paying $48 (8 x $6) to hit your set. You then must determine whether or not your opponent is likely to pay off at least that much or not when you hit. The reason pgil said the thing about large pp's is that if villain is raising lots of hands then they are more likely to have a hand that will miss the flop whereas if villain has a really tight raising range then they are more likely to "hit" the flop with their overpair. The way you tell what they are raising is by looking at their stats/analyzing their game. If someone raises 3% of their hands then you can call larger pre-flop raises against them than you can vs. someone who raises 20%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by d0zer
By the time it's been re-raised, usually the bet is too big for rule of 10 to apply.
Correct so you fold your small pp when this happens. Another thing...when playing people who aren't even guaranteed to stack off with a large overpair post-flop then the 10x rule needs to be changed to something higher like 15x or 20x.
Good stuff!

I've always taken a very 'static' approach to rule of 10, but I see that's a leak in my game... Have got to apply it more dynamically depending on what the villain's pre-flop raising habits are...
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