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is this the shit thats raising us?

  
 
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Chopper
Old 08-22-2007, 04:20 AM     Post subject: is this the shit thats raising us? #1 (permalink)  
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sorry converter broken. results not too important, just look at the hand villain held here.

PokerStars Game #11622343591: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/08/22 - 00:08:51 (ET)
Table 'Menelaus IV' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: |'play4REALL ($4.65 in chips)
Seat 2: pfsbulldawg ($17.20 in chips)
Seat 3: 4Robby3 ($11.65 in chips)
Seat 4: playinggecko ($9.50 in chips)
Seat 5: Too-Anti-To ($21.15 in chips)
Seat 6: gwplant ($11.70 in chips)
Seat 7: MEOsimard ($15.55 in chips)
Seat 8: BufordDalt ($9.20 in chips)
Seat 9: Wetbo HC ($24.65 in chips)
pfsbulldawg: posts small blind $0.10
4Robby3: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to pfsbulldawg [As Ah]
playinggecko: folds
Too-Anti-To: folds
gwplant: calls $0.25
MEOsimard: calls $0.25
BufordDalt: folds
Wetbo HC: folds
|'play4REALL: folds
pfsbulldawg: raises $1 to $1.25
4Robby3: folds
gwplant: folds
MEOsimard: raises $1 to $2.25
pfsbulldawg: raises $3.25 to $5.50
MEOsimard: calls $3.25
*** FLOP *** [3c 4h Ac]
pfsbulldawg: bets $5
MEOsimard: raises $5 to $10
pfsbulldawg: raises $1.70 to $11.70 and is all-in
MEOsimard: calls $0.05 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [3c 4h Ac] [Qd]
*** RIVER *** [3c 4h Ac Qd] [3h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
pfsbulldawg: shows [As Ah] (a full house, Aces full of Threes)
MEOsimard: mucks hand
pfsbulldawg collected $30.05 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $31.60 | Rake $1.55
Board [3c 4h Ac Qd 3h]
Seat 1: |'play4REALL (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: pfsbulldawg (small blind) showed [As Ah] and won ($30.05) with a full house, Aces full of Threes
Seat 3: 4Robby3 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: playinggecko folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Too-Anti-To folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: gwplant folded before Flop
Seat 7: MEOsimard mucked [7s Qs]
Seat 8: BufordDalt folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Wetbo HC folded before Flop (didn't bet)


now, is this the shit thats raising our cbets? value bets?

didnt have pt numbers on this idiot; therefore, i have no idea if this was random out of him.

i've been being tested a lot this month. and it seems to be when i have nothing to fight back with, but i was just wondering if i'm folding a lot of stuff WAY too early.

and, it could just be the cards right now.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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martindcx1e
Old 08-22-2007, 05:22 AM #2 (permalink)  
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tales of poker?
Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
 
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Chopper
Old 08-22-2007, 05:42 AM #3 (permalink)  
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no, its actually a serious question.

how much of this crap is bluffing us?
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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martindcx1e
Old 08-22-2007, 06:33 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
no, its actually a serious question.

how much of this crap is bluffing us?
this is a random donkey...don't put too much thought into it.
Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
 
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bigspenda73
Old 08-22-2007, 07:00 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
no, its actually a serious question.

how much of this crap is bluffing us?
Spenda theorem: Raises on Ace-high flops from sane opponents are polarized to sets/bluffs. It just doesn't make any sense to c/r or raise an Ace-hi flop if you have an Ace in your hand.

This does not apply to bad playesr who are only on level 1.
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Chopper
Old 08-22-2007, 12:49 PM #6 (permalink)  
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so, i guess youre saying...if you have the A, be less likely to fold to the raise?

of course, here i wasnt going anywhere, but if i had only the weak A, i fold that shit in a heartbeat...correctly? say i had Ah5h? do you fold to the flop raise? hell, i may fold the stoopid minraise pf in a HU situation.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Vrax
Old 08-22-2007, 08:10 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Spenda theorem: Raises on Ace-high flops from sane opponents are polarized to sets/bluffs. It just doesn't make any sense to c/r or raise an Ace-hi flop if you have an Ace in your hand.
Not really. Sane opponents know, that from tim to time it's good to actually have the hand they like to represent.
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BankItDrew
Old 08-22-2007, 09:57 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 If you had A5h instead and the same thing happened, I'm still sticking in the rest of the $6 behind, because there's already like $25 in the pot.

As one of the other guys mentioned, don't look too much into this, as it is just another donky looking to destack themself.


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bigspenda73
Old 08-22-2007, 10:30 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrax
Quote:
Spenda theorem: Raises on Ace-high flops from sane opponents are polarized to sets/bluffs. It just doesn't make any sense to c/r or raise an Ace-hi flop if you have an Ace in your hand.
Not really. Sane opponents know, that from tim to time it's good to actually have the hand they like to represent.
ahhh, but they aren't repping an Ace, they're repping a hand that can beat AK.
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wufwugy
Old 08-22-2007, 10:47 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 There's more bluffing going on than you think.
 
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swiggidy
Old 08-22-2007, 11:22 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
There's more bluffing going on than you think.
It depends. At 25NL, people who bluff like this are very easy to take money from.
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Chopper
Old 08-23-2007, 12:49 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swiggidy
Quote:
Originally Posted by wufwugy
There's more bluffing going on than you think.
It depends. At 25NL, people who bluff like this are very easy to take money from.
tips on finding them? everytime i make the "hero call," it seems i'm 2nd best to the goods.

do i look for a "type" of player? like slaa?

do i look for an AF? like >3?

or do i look for a type of "board?" like lots of scary cards? and, if so, what do you typically call with? TP? or do you need 2 pair?

or do you just fold most times, and wait until you know youre likely good and just stack them that way?
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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martindcx1e
Old 08-23-2007, 01:03 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
or do you just fold most times, and wait until you know youre likely good and just stack them that way?
ding ding ding. stop making hero calls. you take money from them like you did in your hh.
Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
 
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Chopper
Old 08-23-2007, 01:55 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
or do you just fold most times, and wait until you know youre likely good and just stack them that way?
ding ding ding. stop making hero calls. you take money from them like you did in your hh.
point taken. the only time i actually make the "hero call" is when i think i'm ahead of what i have them on.

but the quote of "theres more bluffing going on than you think" got me "thinking:" Am i being abused? and, if so, when do i look to stop it?

i used to have a handle on this stuff. i swear a cold streak can make you feel like you've regressed.

i know the answer...bet when you've got it, semi-bluff when you have draws/combos to the nuts (if even then), and fold when you dont or too aggression. thats the "secret" to microstakes poker.

so i guess i should say that out loud everyday 10k times. just like "focus on position" and "play within your 'profitable range.'"

fundamentals, chopper, fundamentals. the rest will take care of itself in the long run............and, its a real LONG run.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Jack Sawyer
Old 08-23-2007, 07:18 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
i know the answer...bet when you've got it, semi-bluff when you have draws/combos to the nuts (if even then), and fold when you dont or too aggression. thats the "secret" to microstakes poker.
short & sweet. i like it.
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Pants_101
Old 08-23-2007, 12:37 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Good players get bluffed more than bad players because bad players can't fold a hand. Good players still make more money than bad players. I'm no great player but last night I was getting played back at a fair bit and I folded a lot. However I made a set and stacked tpgk and so finished miles up. Sometimes I'm being bluffed off small pots and sometimes I'm folding when I'm miles behind in a small pot so it's good overall I think. It's easy to start feeling that everyone is just taking the piss though and pushing you around, but unless I have a read that they bet and raise too much I tend to give them credit.
Must get more aggressive - Tonight we dine in $25NL! rah rah rah! etc
 
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Chopper
Old 08-23-2007, 12:58 PM #17 (permalink)  
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this is the confusing part about advice. and, i'm sure i'm not alone here.

people are constantly saying "get more aggressive," "aggression wins," "size bets to get it in," etc, etc.

to me, that can be misleading. while, yes, its true, it makes you think that folding is "weak." and, if youre not careful, you start to think that your opponents are "being aggressive" with you...you call to find that they have the goods most times.

no one is recommending bluffing. no one is recommending raising 67s UTG. no one is recommending pushing the flop with TT on an 8-high board. thats not "aggression," either.

if you have TPTK, or worse, you need to realize that the bet/raise means something. and, if bet at again, you are prolly behind by a good bit. and, you need to fold to aggression here.

wait until you hit strong hand/draw...and dont slowplay those. thats the aggression to which others are referring.


sorry. just a little self talk there that someone else needs to hear, too. i guarantee you i'm not the only one that thinks, at times, that aggression = bluffing/not folding.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Pants_101
Old 08-23-2007, 01:40 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Aggressive folding for the $$$
Must get more aggressive - Tonight we dine in $25NL! rah rah rah! etc
 
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martindcx1e
Old 08-23-2007, 04:00 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Good aggressive players like to test their opponents a lot. They rarely run huge straight up bluffs with 0 outs though, and they still are only calling big all-ins with great hands.
Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
 
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Chopper
Old 08-23-2007, 04:58 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Good aggressive players like to test their opponents a lot. They rarely run huge straight up bluffs with 0 outs though, and they still are only calling big all-ins with great hands.
seems to me that if you like to "test" your opponents with semi-bluffs, raises on flops, and check-raises oop, your variance would be relatively high.

and i assume they arent doing it w/o a fair number of outs behind and possibly the better hand at the moment.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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martindcx1e
Old 08-23-2007, 07:38 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Good aggressive players like to test their opponents a lot. They rarely run huge straight up bluffs with 0 outs though, and they still are only calling big all-ins with great hands.
seems to me that if you like to "test" your opponents with semi-bluffs, raises on flops, and check-raises oop, your variance would be relatively high.

and i assume they arent doing it w/o a fair number of outs behind and possibly the better hand at the moment.
well obviously the more aggressive you play the more variance you will experience. that's just how it works. also, having position is very important.
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Pythonic
Old 08-23-2007, 09:30 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Chopper, just be happy that there are idiots out there that do this when you have a monster. Note them and move on.
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Chopper
Old 08-23-2007, 11:10 PM #23 (permalink)  
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dont get me wrong, i'm happy. it just got me thinking.

how can i get better at picking off bluffs w/o incurring too much risk?
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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BankItDrew
Old 08-24-2007, 07:41 AM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
how can i get better at picking off bluffs w/o incurring too much risk?
Study both your aggressiveness and texture of board on each hand.

I tend to give myself a ranking between 0-10 during each hand. I consider my position, table image, c-bet size, and action on turn. I find that most bluffs I pick off are when I have a strong hand but bet light on flop and check oop on turn... position man, that's so huge when people bluff. This actually happens to be my new favorite play: checking turn into villain and bombing it with a c/r.

Board texture. Is the board paired? Was the flop low? How many diamonds? These are great spots for bluffs/semi bluffs because you've got to have either a great hand or an excellent read to play back at aggressive villains on these textures.

So combine the two, and maybe play a little more passive oop and induce the bluffs on purpose, you'll find yourself getting more play against very weak/way behind hands on the flop.
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