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set facing huge overbet from unknown

  
 
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zook
Old 09-23-2006, 10:36 PM     Post subject: set facing huge overbet from unknown #1 (permalink)  
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I sat down about an orbit ago and have no stats or reads on UTG. What's your play?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

UTG ($95.25)
UTG+1 ($48.75)
MP1 ($60.35)
MP2 ($57.68)
CO ($49.39)
Hero ($44.50)
SB ($49.50)
BB ($50)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 3, 3. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, UTG+1 calls $0.50, MP1 calls $0.50, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.50, SB (poster) completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($3) 6, 3, 9 (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets $10.97, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Hero ???
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TerryToma
Old 09-23-2006, 10:47 PM #2 (permalink)  
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raise preflop.

as played make it 25$ on flop.
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givememyleg
Old 09-24-2006, 12:14 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 Preflop is ok, you don't always have to raise small pp's on the button. Lately I've been tending to raise though.

You can either call and try to get it ai on the turn if he leads again, or you can raise and hope his limp re-raise pf with AA/KK didn't work and he wants to give you some money.

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Renton
Old 09-24-2006, 01:05 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 because of the utg limp, i just call on the button here. I don't want to get limpreraised off. As played just call and get all in on the turn.

There is a very high chance that he has AA/KK.
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zook
Old 09-25-2006, 07:50 PM #5 (permalink)  
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I pushed, he folded. So a call or smaller raise might be better here. I lean toward a call so he might think I'm drawing and will lead a blank turn. Thanks for the feedback.
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hachkc
Old 09-25-2006, 08:03 PM #6 (permalink)  

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Play looks fine to me.

PF - I limp here most of the time hoping to hit (which you did). A raise accomplishes what? Maybe you can buy a small pot with a cbet but a raise from the button doesn't necessarily mean much. Also, if you raise PF you may not have gotten the action you did. Obviously, raising with 33 and hitting your set here is great but doesn't happen much.

Flop - Looks fine. You definitely needed to bet here though with the flush and weak str8 draws out. It helped that he opened the flop betting for you though. Last thing you want to do here IMHO is call his bet and have another heart hit; you made your money on the hand and move on.
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TerryToma
Old 09-25-2006, 09:03 PM #7 (permalink)  
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have u ever played against someone who raised a small PP from EP and hit thier set? If you hit one of your big pairs its very hard to lay down.
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zook
Old 09-25-2006, 09:15 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TerryToma
have u ever played against someone who raised a small PP from EP and hit thier set? If you hit one of your big pairs its very hard to lay down.
In EP I often open-raise PPs (although it depends on the table) but in LP after multiple limpers, I'm happy to see a flop cheaply with 22-66. Even if you raise in this situation, there's a good chance you'll get two or three callers and someone will catch a piece of the flop and either donk bet you or call your c-bet. I find that with my usual stats (22/10) I get plenty of action with my sets, even if I'm occasionally limping with PPs.
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hachkc
Old 09-25-2006, 09:20 PM #9 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TerryToma
have u ever played against someone who raised a small PP from EP and hit thier set? If you hit one of your big pairs its very hard to lay down.
Yep but that's not the discussion here as he is the button.

That's great when that happens but 7 out of 8 times it doesn't. What do you do when you miss the flop though? Do you cbet it? Check/fold? Check/raise it if a bet is made? A PF raise usually complicates the decision while a limp leaves more options open. I don't advocate limping everytime with PP in or OOP but the majority of the time (70-80% or so) I'll limp with 33 on the button with 4 limpers in a cash game. On occasion, I'll raise and if I hit set I'll probably get paid off.
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TerryToma
Old 09-25-2006, 09:23 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hachkc
Quote:
Originally Posted by TerryToma
have u ever played against someone who raised a small PP from EP and hit thier set? If you hit one of your big pairs its very hard to lay down.
Yep but that's not the discussion here as he is the button.

That's great when that happens but 7 out of 8 times it doesn't. What do you do when you miss the flop though? Do you cbet it? Check/fold? Check/raise it if a bet is made? A PF raise usually complicates the decision while a limp leaves more options open. I don't advocate limping everytime with PP in or OOP but the majority of the time (70-80% or so) I'll limp with 33 on the button with 4 limpers in a cash game. On occasion, I'll raise and if I hit set I'll probably get paid off.
very true.. but yeah i usually reraise to 4xbb+1 per limper and cbet like an idiot. with a raised pot its much easier to get it all in by flop/turn... taking a lot of thinking out of the equation if a 3 to flush or weird str8 possibility hits the board.
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Fnord
Old 09-25-2006, 09:43 PM #11 (permalink)  
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This pattern used to confuse me, then I looked a few of them up.

This is usually someone way over-playing top pair, concealed over-pair (AA/KK is popular) or making a really stupid play at the pot. I can't get my money in fast enough. Although I'd probably just call and see how much more he wants to spew.

That being said, the bitch about bottom set in an unraised pot is that there are times you might want to get away from it. This isn't one of them. I doubt he's going for your action, he's looking for someone married to a worse hand or is playing aggro-scared.
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nutsinho
Old 09-25-2006, 09:54 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 he prob meant to bet 1.97
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Fnord
Old 09-25-2006, 09:55 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nutsinho
he prob meant to bet 1.97
Don't under-estimate the power of human stupidity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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martindcx1e
Old 09-25-2006, 10:17 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hachkc
A raise accomplishes what?
builds the pot for when you hit, disguises your set, disguises your pf monsters, gives you the option to cbet or take a free turn, and doesn't really complicate things too much since these hands are pretty easy to get away from. also...you don't have to cbet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zook
...in LP after multiple limpers, I'm happy to see a flop cheaply with 22-66. Even if you raise in this situation, there's a good chance you'll get two or three callers and someone will catch a piece of the flop and either donk bet you or call your c-bet
i love this when i hit my set.
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zook
Old 09-25-2006, 11:28 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Ok, here's a situation where I raised with 33 from LP. What's your play? Easy fold or raise and represent TPTK? UTG+1 is a tight, solid 17/4 that I've logged a lot of hands with. I only have around ~100 hands on the donk-betting MP1, but he's 24/4 over that stretch.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($109.60)
BB ($52.95)
UTG ($32.39)
UTG+1 ($52.40)
MP1 ($56.25)
MP2 ($18.28)
Hero ($50.75)
Button ($134.15)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 3, 3. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.50, MP1 calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero raises to $3, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls $2.50, MP1 calls $2.50.

Flop: ($9.75) 2, 5, A (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets $7, Hero ???
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TerryToma
Old 09-25-2006, 11:41 PM #16 (permalink)  
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fold.
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martindcx1e
Old 09-25-2006, 11:45 PM #17 (permalink)  
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easy fold imo zook
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givememyleg
Old 09-26-2006, 12:59 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by nutsinho
he prob meant to bet 1.97
Don't under-estimate the power of human stupidity.
lol

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hachkc
Old 09-26-2006, 01:05 AM #19 (permalink)  

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As to the comment about raising marginal hands like 33, you've simply increased the amount you need to win to justify the larger bet. But you've also increased your chances to cbet taking down the boat by your show of strength. I don't have a problem with this play but in my book its the exception not the rule. Now when you hit with this play you'll probably have an easier time getting paid off depending the board and such.

Now based on this, what range hands do you and don't you raise with? The absurd extension of this logic is to raise any hand you would consider playing on the chance that it hits big but I'm assuming you don't advocate that approach or do you?
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martindcx1e
Old 09-26-2006, 01:09 AM #20 (permalink)  
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hachkc, you hit a set way more often than 2 pair/straight/flush on the flop. you don't raise any 2 b/c you have like a 2% chance to flop 2 pair and 2 pair is way weaker than a set. yes, raising all pairs is a preference. when people give advice on hands they say how they would have played it. no, it's obviously not concretely better or worse.
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hachkc
Old 09-26-2006, 02:56 AM #21 (permalink)  

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Quote:
Originally Posted by martindcx1e
hachkc, you hit a set way more often than 2 pair/straight/flush on the flop. you don't raise any 2 b/c you have like a 2% chance to flop 2 pair and 2 pair is way weaker than a set. yes, raising all pairs is a preference. when people give advice on hands they say how they would have played it. no, it's obviously not concretely better or worse.
Agreed and fair enough.
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