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Set on an all spade flop

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andr3w321

07-15-2005, 12:59 AM Post subject: Set on an all spade flop

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Chapel Hill, NC

Posts: 413

Do you play this hand any differently? Best I can figure he must have the nut flush, there's not really anything else that makes sense after his river bet.

***** Hand History for Game 2364136819 *****
$25 NL Texas Hold'em - Thursday, July 14, 19:45:13 EDT 2005
Table Table 55265 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: dr3w321 ( $24.13 )
Seat 3: resetdave ( $41.90 )
Seat 6: theology ( $20.20 )
Seat 10: str8_nuts ( $20.45 )
Seat 9: eieio42 ( $26.76 )
Seat 5: imahaney ( $14.15 )
Seat 8: HotCardStud ( $35.95 )
Seat 7: grenache1 ( $17.90 )
Seat 2: JupiterWorld ( $3.40 )
Seat 4: higho ( $25.95 )
resetdave posts small blind [$0.10].
higho posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to dr3w321 [

]
imahaney folds.
>You have options at Table 36745 Table!.
theology folds.
grenache1 calls [$0.25].
HotCardStud calls [$0.25].
eieio42 calls [$0.25].
>You have options at Table 37198 Table!.
str8_nuts folds.
>You have options at Table 37198 Table!.
dr3w321 calls [$0.25].
JupiterWorld folds.
resetdave folds.
higho checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [

, :As: ]
higho checks.
grenache1 checks.
>You have options at Table 37198 Table!.
HotCardStud checks.
eieio42 checks.
dr3w321 bets [$1].
higho folds.
grenache1 folds.
>You have options at Table 37198 Table!.
>You have options at Table 37198 Table!.
HotCardStud folds.
eieio42 calls [$1].
** Dealing Turn ** [

]
eieio42 checks.
>You have options at Table 37198 Table!.
dr3w321 bets [$2].
eieio42 calls [$2].
** Dealing River ** [ :Jc: ]
eieio42 bets [$10].
dr3w321 folds.
eieio42 does not show cards.
eieio42 wins $17

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Fnord

07-15-2005, 01:33 AM

#2 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,334

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Yeah, the villian's line here really stinks.

How about a larger turn bet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Drewbie

07-15-2005, 04:01 PM

#3 (permalink)

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 88

all indications here say he slow-playing the nut flush.
I woudnt call that with second bottom set.

Do you think J-A was a possibility here?

dalecooper

07-15-2005, 06:04 PM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 3,107

I don't think so. Even if he did have AJ and hit two pair, he's not betting out THAT strong. It really smells like a slowplay to me, and I'm folding.

Element187

07-15-2005, 06:08 PM

#5 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Orlando, FL

Posts: 802

if the villian is slow playing a flush, he's not very smart in protecting his hand on the flop.. board pairs he cant put much faith in his flush.

or he is playing scared to make sure he still has the nuts on the river ?

"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls

dalecooper

07-15-2005, 06:17 PM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 3,107

Considering the stakes, I think he's just a classic dumbass slowplayer. I saw a shitload of that when I played $25 NL.

lowBoy

07-15-2005, 06:59 PM

#7 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2005

Posts: 513

I'd bet a little more on the flop and keep it going strong on the turn. If he calls both I'd lay it down to a decent bet on the river, or check behind.

EasyT

07-15-2005, 09:29 PM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Yo Mamma

Posts: 834

Quote:

Originally Posted by dalecooper

Considering the stakes, I think he's just a classic dumbass slowplayer. I saw a shitload of that when I played $25 NL.

Ha! :P

eeeee

07-15-2005, 10:06 PM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: SoCal

Posts: 906

I think the villain was holding KT of spades.

I think the villain was an idiot because he overbet the river, but not because he was ignoring the 'possible board pairing.' I think the villain didn't have a clear read on dr3w321, but was well aware of a possible trips or lower flush because of the limp-in preflop. Perhaps the villain was hoping to look like he had a one-spade draw, and was bluffing at the missed river. But the villain did get an additional $3 out of a flush board -- scoreboard! And to put a different twist on what dalecooper said, in $25NL, plenty of people will pay off that stupid river bet, just not andr3w321.

I think I am being redundant here, because I'm already on the record here at FTR for saying "Slow Playing Sucks". But I'll say it again, slow playing sucks. But to disagree with myself, one may slow play the nuts if one is able to fold the ex-nuts.

Let's turn the question around (coop, fnord, et al) -- other than the overbet river, how best could the villain have played his possible flopped nut flush?

And, good fold andr3w321 ! Don't be a hater

.
Is asshat a verb?

I'm a know-it-all.

No, really.

dalecooper

07-15-2005, 10:22 PM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 3,107

I'm in the camp that says slowplaying is OK if:
- you know your opponent is either aggressive enough to bet for you when you check, or tight enough to probably fold if you bet on the flop
- you have some kind of read on what your opponent holds, so you know if get outdrawn, and you know the odds of that happening
- most importantly, you're willing to part with your hand when and if you are outdrawn

Poker is about profit, and sometimes you maximize profit by slowing down. But a lot of players have a fixed idea of how to play these hands: step 1, flop flush (or a set, or a straight); step 2, check/call for a while until the river comes. And by doing this they also don't realize that so many people slowplay, that very often it doesn't make you money at all - others are accutely sensitive to it and fold at the first big bet. You can often make more money creatively betting on a miracle flop than doing the usual check/call thing.

dalecooper

07-15-2005, 10:26 PM

#11 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 3,107

How to play a flopped flush creatively:

1. bet the pot on the flop and hope for a call or raise. Call is most probable because people don't believe that guy that bets out like that (or think he just has top pair, and they want to outdraw him with their one spade).
2. check/raise the turn (the check projects weakness - "you caught me! I have nothing, maybe a stupid draw!" - and will almost certainly prompt a bet from the player that called the flop)
3. bet out hard on the river

...assuming of course that the board doesn't pair and cause your opponent(s) to start mega-raising.

At some tables I might also try:

- going all in on the flop (you'd be surprised how often this works... not every time or even half the time, but since I'm getting called for way more than the pot, it's profitable if they call one time in five)

- check/raising all in on the flop with long hesitations (i.e. pause a while, then check; then pause a while, then raise all in. And when I say a while, I mean several seconds, not 10 or 20. Again this is designed to look like a bluff, and will get a small but surprising percentage of calls.)

eeeee

07-15-2005, 10:57 PM

#12 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: SoCal

Posts: 906

Thanks Coop for that elegant reply. I do those things too, on occasion. The 'typical' play (70%?) for me is to bet the pot, rounded down to the nearest dollar, which I do on my continuation bets, my trips, my monster flops, and my draws. And the other 30% is for color -- check raising, check calling, min raising, 1/2 pot raising.

So andr3w321, you were holding trips.

What kind of raise would have made you fold, knowing you had 7 outs on the turn and 10 outs to beat the flush on the river? Or a better question is, how big of a bet would you have called flop/turn/river?

I'm a know-it-all.

No, really.

andr3w321

07-16-2005, 04:59 PM

#13 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Chapel Hill, NC

Posts: 413

If he bet big on the flop I probably would have put him on A9 or a less than nut flush. Depending on which I felt more strongly I probably would have either ended up losing a lot more $ on this hand or not very much at all if he had not tried slowplaying.

a500lbgorilla

07-16-2005, 05:04 PM

#14 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

If villian was more aggro on the flop, his hand range shoots down top pair up to a flush. If villian waits til the turn to get his aggro on, it's either a flush or a bluff. If he waits to the river to leadout overbet, he's just stupid.
-'rilla

EasyT

07-16-2005, 10:32 PM

#15 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Yo Mamma

Posts: 834

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

If he waits to the river to leadout overbet, he's just stupid.
-'rilla

Hell, yeah!

Everyone should add this asshat to their buddy list!!! :P

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=15350
wink,

wink,

eeeee

07-16-2005, 11:05 PM

#16 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: SoCal

Posts: 906

Quote:

Originally Posted by EasyT

Hell, yeah! Everyone should add this asshat to their buddy list!!! :P

Thanks EasyT -- Yeah, I want to be on all of FTR's buddy list [/sarcasm]

I'm a know-it-all.

No, really.

EasyT

07-18-2005, 02:46 PM

#17 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Yo Mamma

Posts: 834

Quote:

Originally Posted by eeeee

Quote:

Originally Posted by EasyT

Hell, yeah! Everyone should add this asshat to their buddy list!!! :P

Thanks EasyT -- Yeah, I want to be on all of FTR's buddy list [/sarcasm]

Awwwwwww, come on eeeee! I'm just funnin' ya!! :P

Everyone here's in the same boat...struggling players like you and me.

The guys with good skills are here giving the rest of us free, good advice.
But I for one am not worried about the better players here adding me to their Buddy List, and then dropping down three levels to prey on my inconsistencies.

Anyway, I'm sorry if I outed you, fella.

EasyT

eeeee

07-18-2005, 05:02 PM

#18 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: SoCal

Posts: 906

Quote:

Originally Posted by EasyT

Quote:

Originally Posted by eeeee

Quote:

Originally Posted by EasyT

Hell, yeah! Everyone should add this asshat to their buddy list!!! :P

Thanks EasyT -- Yeah, I want to be on all of FTR's buddy list [/sarcasm]

EasyT

All in good fun.

Suprised no one else commented on the stuff we thought was so hilarious.

I added andr3w321 to one of my buddy lists, but he doesn't respond to the asshat question -- he picks g00t tables

I'm a know-it-all.

No, really.

andr3w321

07-18-2005, 06:15 PM

#19 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Chapel Hill, NC

Posts: 413

LOL! I didn't realize I was up against a fellow FTRer on this hand. Nice one EasyT. Hope to see ya at the tables again sometime!

EasyT

07-18-2005, 06:19 PM

#20 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Yo Mamma

Posts: 834

eeeee -
I'd guess he must not know about the FTR 'secret handshake'. Why don't you PM him a FTR-Friendly "Hello", and the handshake thread. You could also go ahead and explain the asshat thing so he doesn't scratch his head for a week like I did.

EasyT

a500lbgorilla

07-18-2005, 08:44 PM

#21 (permalink)

JESUS TAKE THE KEYBOARD

Join Date: Sep 2004

Location: This room is a good place to be

Posts: 8,379

Quote:

Originally Posted by EasyT

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

If he waits to the river to leadout overbet, he's just stupid.
-'rilla

Hell, yeah!

Everyone should add this asshat to their buddy list!!! :P

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=15350
wink,

wink,

OH BURN!

-'rilla

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