|
iolzizlyi
|
12-22-2007, 04:50 AM
Post subject: screw bankroll management
|
#1 (permalink)
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Athens, GA
Posts: 67
|
|
i'll do this as briefly as possible. so my story is that i have been playing SnG's for a little while now. about a month ago i decided to give cash games a shot. following your advice (FTR posters) i am rolled for 5NL. so i have been playing that. but honestly i get so effing sick of people that cannot fold their draws and it seems like they always hit when i never hit. i consider myself a decent player. definitely nowhere near as good as most of the regs on this site. but i know how to bet, when to bluff, etc. and i'll be beating 5NL for a while and then have a ridiculous run where i get oversetted, overflushed, etc. and then fucking poof...i'm back to where i was. so after a few hands today where i went in as a huge fav and got sucked out on, i went into a form of tilt. i moved up to 50NL but i didn't really play any differently than i have been. i played tighter since more of my roll was at stake, but i think i still played solid poker. actually i was four-tabling: 50NL, 50NL, 25NL, and 10NL. i made all my money back and then some in like 3 orbits. the question: if i am willing to deposit more cash (in the event of variance which i know will happen eventually), can i go ahead and [drastically] move up in limits since i am decently confident in my game?
|
|
|
Play for FREE and practice your game at...
Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
|
|
BankItDrew
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
|
|
yes.
play whatever limit you are comfortable playing, so long as you have a bunch of buy-ins available for that limit.
|
Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
|
|
PapalRage
|
|
Flush
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Notre Dame
Posts: 309
|
|
your not really screwing bankroll management if you buy in enough to provide yourself with an adequate bankroll...GL
|
|
ndultimate.
|
|
iolzizlyi
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Athens, GA
Posts: 67
|
|
i mean 50NL according to the rules is >= 25 buy-ins which is $1250 which i don't have to spend on poker...right now. so i'm hoping that my current skill will build me to the point where my bankroll is sufficiently large. you know, try to avoid marginal situations and just play a bit cautiously for the first few sessions. and hope my hands hold. but if not i can afford a few more buyins. otherwise i'd just deposit the cash and be done with it.
|
|
|
|
wufwugy
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
|
|
Roll builds substantially faster than skill.
|
|
|
|
Fnord
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
|
|
If you can replace your "roll", then play whatever stake you feel you can beat and are comfortable with the amount of money at stake. Managing a roll only comes in when you can't just re-buy into yourself.
|
|
|
|
jyms
|
|
Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
|
|
Yea, if you can't beat the micros's, you won't beat the higher stakes. It's been said a thousand times by a thousand posters, some of which still post here. If your confident in moving up under rolled and willing to rebuy, go for it. But we expect an update. I don't want to be negatie, but they are the micro stakes. Kill it.
|
|
|
|
iolzizlyi
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Athens, GA
Posts: 67
|
|
i understand that these are microstakes and that i should be owning them. but isn't there something to be said for people that really just are not serious about poker? like the ones that see two clubs in their hand and two on the board and call damn near everything to get there? am i at a disadvantage because i think too deeply at these levels rather than just playing my hand? and i am technically winning at 5NL but it so SO DAMN SLOW. i probably tend to get impatient and i pay off draws when i know deep down i need to fold. but i see other hands played similarly on FTR and the consensus is to just pay them off at these stakes. i.e. don't fold flushes or sets. it can be frustrating...
|
|
|
|
d0zer
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,521
|
|
I also have no patience for bankroll management. I buy-in for $25 or so, 2-table 10NL until I get up to $50 and can 2-table 25NL. Once I built myself up to 2-tabling 100NL, then cashed out with $500 after a hot streak, quit for a few weeks, then started back with $25.
It's more exciting that way for me. I don't have the patience for the grinds that more serious players do. I'm more attentive when half my bankroll is on the line.
I've gone broke on bat beats enough times to understand why bankroll mgmt is important. I...just....don't care enough to employ it 
|
|
|
|
varena
|
|
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 22
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by iolzizlyi
like the ones that see two clubs in their hand and two on the board and call damn near everything to get there?...
|
i know the feeling because i play microstakes. when i play against chasers, i'll make them pay for it by betting 3/4- full pot bet.
if your @ a table with people u feel that do not take the game serious or whatever makes u feel uncomfortable, change tables or play on another site. i play at multiple sites and sometimes will move around when things are not going well. just my .02, GL.
|
|
|
|
bigspenda73
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
|
|
Every losing poker player sounds the same: "everyone is soooo bad and they never fold a draw and they always get there, blah blah blah blah blah imma dirty whore"
You ever hear any of the big winners on this site talk like that?
|
|
|
|
IowaSkinsFan
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 7,148
|
|
I recommend you move down to 2nl until you get better.
|
|
|
|
d0zer
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,521
|
|
You can't complain about chasers. You make good money on em'. Sure they'll screwyah a thirda the time, but that's the price of admission.
...IF you learn to fold when they come out with the aggression when they hit 
|
|
|
|
iolzizlyi
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Athens, GA
Posts: 67
|
|
spenda, now that you've berated me, would you like to give me some advice or not? i never said everybody at 5NL is sooo bad and they never fold and they always get there. but yeah occasionally somebody gets lucky on me and takes my stack and i get irritated.
isf, as i said before, i am currently beating 5NL. i feel i can beat 10 and possibly 25NL. and you're telling me that i need to move down? that doesn't solve my problem of making money any faster at all.
honestly the advice i was expecting to hear from the two of you was to deposit the extra hundred i need to be rolled for 10NL and then to reevaluate my play at that point.
|
|
|
|
bigspenda73
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
|
|
If you could beat 5nl you'd already be at 10nl, plain and simple. Earning 20 buyins at a game that soft should not be difficult. If you do not have the time and/or patience to stick it out you flat out do not have the tools to play poker succesfully at higher levels online.
|
|
|
|
Jack Sawyer
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Old School
Posts: 2,535
|
|
Patience is a virtue
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by iolzizlyi
honestly the advice i was expecting to hear from the two of you was to deposit the extra hundred i need to be rolled for 10NL and then to reevaluate my play at that point.
|
You want to hear what you want to hear, and nobody will change your mind.
The lesson which will stay is that which you experience on your own.
|
My dream... is to fly... over the rainbow... so high...
Quote:
|
VHS is like a book and a book is like a stack of kindles.
|
Hey, I'm in a movie!
http://youtu.be/lGdnIrRKDTI
|
|
Miffed22001
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
If you could beat 5nl you'd already be at 10nl, plain and simple. Earning 20 buyins at a game that soft should not be difficult. If you do not have the time and/or patience to stick it out you flat out do not have the tools to play poker succesfully at higher levels online.
|
seconded
|
|
|
|
iolzizlyi
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Athens, GA
Posts: 67
|
|
patience i'm obviously having a problem with but since the majority says that i need to stick it out i will. the time thing...i mean i've only been at 5NL for a month now (6000 hands). combine that with my job and school and right now poker is third on my list of things to do.
|
|
|
|
jyms
|
|
Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by iolzizlyi
i mean i've only been at 5NL for a month now (6000 hands).
|
Yea, you may want to wait before moving up. Ive played that much in the last two days.
|
|
|
|
Pelion
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
|
|
your bankroll isnt the amount you keep on the site. its the amount you are prepared to "spend" on poker if your doomswitch gets flicked. It sounds like you arent particularly playing underrolled since you can redeposit. There are a few points that should be made though. First of all having an online roll in a specific place allows you to keep track of its size and watch it grow/ shrink. Thats a great confidence booster when it grows longterm, and it stops you kidding yourself if it shrinks. Having a set online roll also teaches you to respect the money and starts you on the path to playing a disciplined game. Lastly it stops you depositing all of your life monies into poker if you are a losing player. This is a good thing.
|
|
gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
|
|
Hawk
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 367
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by iolzizlyi
patience i'm obviously having a problem with but since the majority says that i need to stick it out i will. the time thing...i mean i've only been at 5NL for a month now (6000 hands). combine that with my job and school and right now poker is third on my list of things to do.
|
I'm pretty much in the same boat you are. I don't have the time to play near as much poker as I'd like (8-9k hands this month) and I'm not yet at a point where I feel comfortable playing a shitload of tables (3 is the highest I've gone, and that was a bit on the stressful side, though fun).
We just have to be patient and realize we aren't going to be able to jump up levels as fast as these guys who are able to get more playing time in....in terms of time, but we can do the same when looking at it in terms of how many hands we've played. Thats what I try to focus on. I have to. If I think about the fact that, in the last two months or so that I've been playing online, I haven't been able to get past 5nl (other than a table here and there at 10nl) I'd get depressed.
|
|
|
|
BankItDrew
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
|
|
it's so easy to make money!
step 1: PWN 2nl till roll = $200
step 2: PWN 5nl till roll = $400
step 3: PWN 10nl till roll = $1000
step 4: PWN 25nl till roll = $2000
step 5: PWN 50nl till roll = $4000
step 6: PWN 100nl till roll = $10, 000
and so on...
include: "and you feel comfortable" at the end of each step. I moved down from levels when I lost 4 or 5 buy-ins below the new levels $$ amount.
Oh and make flopturnriver.com your homepage.
|
Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
|
|
iolzizlyi
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Athens, GA
Posts: 67
|
|
man i seriously gotta wait till $400? i was getting excited cuz i'm getting close to $250 (which is 25 100BB buyins).
oh and ftr already is my homepage. i think i check this site more than my myspace. i definitely check this site when i should be doing homework.
btw: 50 posts!
|
|
|
|
JinxT4
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 265
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by iolzizlyi
man i seriously gotta wait till $400? i was getting excited cuz i'm getting close to $250 (which is 25 100BB buyins).
oh and ftr already is my homepage. i think i check this site more than my myspace. i definitely check this site when i should be doing homework.
btw: 50 posts!
|
Just wondering iolzizlyi, do you play 5nl now? I'm pretty sure that I remember seeing an "iolzizlyi" (with a bulldog wearing a hat avatar) @ some of my Stars 10nl tables in the past, and was curious if it was the same iolzizlyi.
|
|
|
|
Robb
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,073
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
Yea, if you can't beat the micros's, you won't beat the higher stakes. It's been said a thousand times by a thousand posters, some of which still post here. If your confident in moving up under rolled and willing to rebuy, go for it. But we expect an update. I don't want to be negatie, but they are the micro stakes. Kill it.
|
I agree. If I were you, I wouldn't move up beyond NL10. That game imo plays reasonable - villains will fold occasionally, and your value bets rarely get called by 95 offsuit (it does happen, though). If you have $250 plus another $100 to $150 behind it offline ready to deposit if things go apeshit (along with moving back down to NL5), then go for it at NL10 with a $250 online roll.
3 orbits is not enough time to know if you're game is successful at NL50. Read the "newbie circle of death" post if you haven't, yet.
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ath-t9214.html
This is where you're heading, if you're not careful. I only think this because I've been there and back - several times.
To reiterate what some others have said, I didn't really learn how bad a player I was until I started listening to folks like fnord, spenda and trainer. I thought they were nuts when I was a "know-it-all losing player". I just nod now when I read their posts, hoping I wasn't too much of a snotrag when I was the newbie disagreeing with them four months ago.
I love playing NL10 'cuz I win big there, and I build up my roll for the shots at NL25, PLO, MTT's, SnG's, etc. Find a microstakes level you're a 10 BB/100 winner over 25k hands, and then camp out for another 25 or 30k hands. You'll learn a lot, and you'll earn a big roll for later use.
All of that being said, I blew off the br suggestions especially at microstakes because I could replace my $200 stake without a problem. Now that I'm nearer $1k, I couldn't just write a check any day of the week to replace the roll. So now I'm careful to play using br suggestions.
Good luck at the tables.
|
|
|
|
Warpe
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
step 1: PWN 2nl till roll = $200
step 2: PWN 5nl till roll = $400
step 3: PWN 10nl till roll = $1000
step 4: PWN 25nl till roll = $2000
step 5: PWN 50nl till roll = $4000
step 6: PWN 100nl till roll = $10, 000
and so on...
|
you, sir, are an uber-nit
|
|
|
|
Robb
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,073
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by iolzizlyi
spenda, now that you've berated me, would you like to give me some advice or not?
|
Just my two cents here, but Spenda didn't berate you. He made a lucid point I wholeheartedly agree with, because there is a certain tone to your original post that sounds like the way I talked when I was a losing player. I don't know if you're winning or losing, but your reasons and rationale for moving up levels sound like me (several months gao) and dozens of other losing players we've seen post here.
If spenda says it, it's probably true. He's not one to flame or start a fight. He's just being honest and trying to help. His advice has helped me TONS. Check out his videos in the beginner's forum - i just watched his PLO vid yesterday, and he's switched on. He gets it.
Again, it's my two cents, but don't take offense to ANYTHING on FTR. If you ask people here for advice, they'll give it. Their advice has made me better. It hasn't always been fun to hear.
Good luck at the tables.
|
|
|
|
BankItDrew
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
step 1: PWN 2nl till roll = $200
step 2: PWN 5nl till roll = $400
step 3: PWN 10nl till roll = $1000
step 4: PWN 25nl till roll = $2000
step 5: PWN 50nl till roll = $4000
step 6: PWN 100nl till roll = $10, 000
and so on...
|
you, sir, are an uber-nit with ultra-high winrates |
FYP
|
|
|
|
iolzizlyi
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Athens, GA
Posts: 67
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by JinxT4
I'm pretty sure that I remember seeing an "iolzizlyi" (with a bulldog wearing a hat avatar) @ some of my Stars 10nl tables in the past, and was curious if it was the same iolzizlyi.
|
one and the same. i took stabs all over. i still do a little bit.
and the way it sounded to me, spenda was just basically calling me a whiner and that's it. and then he made a post telling me i needed to work on my time patience. either way its no big deal. you can call me a cocksucking bitch if you want. just tell me why you think so. and trust me i know spenda isn't trying to start anything. or anybody else. i don't mind the "tough love" at all. i respect all opinions on this site. cuz most of the members who post at least sometimes are at least as good as me...but probably way better.
|
|
|
|
d0zer
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,521
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
step 1: PWN 2nl till roll = $200
step 2: PWN 5nl till roll = $400
step 3: PWN 10nl till roll = $1000
step 4: PWN 25nl till roll = $2000
step 5: PWN 50nl till roll = $4000
step 6: PWN 100nl till roll = $10, 000
and so on...
|
you, sir, are an uber-nit |
+1
My 'bankroll management' is:
PWN 10NL till roll = $50
PWN 25NL till roll = $150
PWN 50NL till roll = $400
PWN 100NL till wifey sees how much money you're gambling with. Withdraw, buy her something nice, then buy back in and start playing 10NL 
Of course I'm leaving out the "take two bad beats and go down a level"...
|
|
|
|
bigspenda73
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
|
|
You guys call Drew a nit yet he plays many levels higher than you and with a huge roll. He's a perfect example of how to do this (poker br management) correctly to lower variance and stress.
|
|
|
|
d0zer
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,521
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
You guys call Drew a nit yet he plays many levels higher than you and with a huge roll. He's a perfect example of how to do this (poker br management) correctly to lower variance and stress.
|
all tongue & cheek
you gotta be conservative to account for variance if you wanna bloody near guarantee you don't go broke from neg variance sure.
...I just don't have that big of a problem going broke I guess...
I've bought in with $25 six times, gone broke three and cashed out three times or so with well over 10x the initial playing fairly ABC tag during a lot of that. It often takes me a few tries to make it past 25 NL starting with $5.50 1table SnGs & 10NL. I often will go up to $50, 2table 25NL, then get smacked down & grind back up for a bit.
...when you DO have hot streaks it's great tho. I prefer that structure as a casual player cause it's more fun with more on the line   
Going broke RAWKS 
|
|
|
|
BankItDrew
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
|
|
thanks bigspenda for the backup, it's sorely needed in a thread where few resist buy-ins every few weeks.
The biggest reason however that I have so many buy-ins is because of what wufwugy said so well last week: Roll builds substantially faster than skill. Maybe I suck more than others on here who move up levels after a couple brewskies.
If you think going broke rawks, or don't care if you go broke, or you are just a casual player, then by all means go broke. This is one category of poker players, I'm in the only other.
|
|
|
|
biondino
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Putney, UK; Full Tilt,Mansion; $50 NL and PL; $13 and $16 SNGs at Stars
Posts: 3,170
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Robb
If spenda says it, it's probably true. He's not one to flame or start a fight.
|
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL POTY 
|
|
|
|
bigspenda73
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,546
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by biondino
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Robb
If spenda says it, it's probably true. He's not one to flame or start a fight.
|
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL POTY |
I'll agree that Robb's assessment of my posts is much closer to being right lately than it has in the past.
|
|
|
|
Robb
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,073
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by d0zer
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
You guys call Drew a nit yet he plays many levels higher than you and with a huge roll. He's a perfect example of how to do this (poker br management) correctly to lower variance and stress.
|
...I just don't have that big of a problem going broke I guess...
Going broke RAWKS |
I used to go broke, and now I br manage much as Drew suggests. Winning at poker rocks. For me, having Drew-like discipline rocks. That discipline helps me in ALL aspects of poker, like the ability to throw away trash hands oop when I'm card dead, or as I’m losing some BI’s while adapting my game to a new level.
Let me tell the story of my last two months that will give a perfect illustration of spenda’s point. I developed a winning base at NL10. But I get bored with grinding. Fortunately, the growing br has allowed me to take shots at MTT/SnG/PLO (properly rolled at each). When I get thin on br, I just grind exclusively at NL10.
I also want to move up to NL25. I have taken two shots at it, both with about $750 br and with a “stop loss” set at $600. I have logged about 5k hands which included about 4k hands of break-even and a loss of a dozen BI's. I wasn't playing terrible (lost seven of twelve flopped sets over two sessions, had KK under AA three times, etc. etc.). But I had to move down because I took my shots at $750 and got below my "loss limit" of $600. Here’s what’s worse, though, I was also playing poorly – not terrible, but weak tight. And when I would realize I was playing like a puss, I’d start spewing with agro moves in the wrong places against the wrong opponents, shoving all-in just prove I wasn’t weak-tight.
Now, I maybe some dumb, but I sure ain’t plumb dumb. So I would see the leaks and quit. Then I’d sit down and promise myself I wouldn’t do it again. But the weak-tight play is a problem EXACTLY BECAUSE $750 WASN'T ENOUGH BR. Maybe for someone else, but not for me. And I’m not an ubernit. I just want so badly to succeed at NL25 that having to move back down to NL10 really hurts my pride. So waiting for $1k makes sense for lots of reasons.
1. I obviously am not the care-free gambler I thought I was.
2. I need to learn patience.
3. I need to have 15 – 20 BI’s above my stop loss limit to feel comfortable at NL25.
4. I have pride, and I want desperately to move up one final time to NL25. Failing again would suck.
5. I obviously have big leaks I can plug, so let’s do it cheap at NL10.
All of this just says what spenda said in one sentence – I should have followed drew’s advice a month ago and never tried my hand at NL25. Had I done it, I might both played better and survived the variance long enough to adapt my game to the new level.
One last thing about building br that spenda and drew have mentioned before that I can attest to personally. If I am so GREAT at poker that I "SHOULD BE" up at NL25, then I ought to be killing NL10. And I'm not, I'm making about 5 - 6 ptBB/100, and folks who post here often manage double that. So I need to be smart enough to work on my game, plug leaks, post HH's and identify weak spots.
Now here’s the ironic part. I’ve been leak-plugging at NL10, but that requires some experimentation, trying new lines and new types of reads and plays that I’m not exactly comfortable with. As I’ve tried to expand my game, my win rate HAS GONE DOWN. Fine, if I’m getting better, it will soon be back up there hopefully better than before. But that’s the problem with moving up to soon. I know my game is going to have to change and get better and that my win rate will suffer. Why not let it suffer at NL10 when it’s cheap? Then I’ll learn the things I need to know and the transition will be smoother.
Sorry this got so long, but I’m writing this more for me than anyone else. I know that grinding discipline is what I need right now, and I’m posting here to promise all y’all (and myself) that I won’t take another shot at NL25 until I’ve broken the 1k mark. Then I’ll kick it’s ass, and I’ll come back here and let everyone know.
Good luck at the tables.
|
|
|
|
BankItDrew
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Losing Prop Bets
Posts: 2,789
|
|
nice post robb.
it all seems perfectly fine to me, your whole mindset towards the discipline of the grind and learning curve. I think the biggest leak for new or current players who are not where they want to be yet, is because they have the wrong mindset towards it all.
Poker is a lifelong game. You cannot expect to be a pro overnight nor expect thousands in your roll because you put it all on the line @ 200nl. You want to make a lot of money consistantly playing this game? Grind from the bottom up.
When I first started out, I read and heard from countless players that if I turned myself into a student of the game, grinded from the bottom, and developed discipline, that it would all be worth it in the end. Easier said than done right? Trust me, it'll all be worth it in the end.
Post updates as they come robb, I look forward to your hand history analysis's from 50nl when you get there.
|
Girlfriend: Why are the werewolves more important than living life?!
Girlfriend: Are you on the forums doing the werewolves again?
Girlfriend: Soo... you forgot to run that errand, but you had time to werewolf? Wtf?
|
|
spoonitnow
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
When I first started out, I read and heard from countless players that if I turned myself into a student of the game, grinded from the bottom, and developed discipline, that it would all be worth it in the end. Easier said than done right? Trust me, it'll all be worth it in the end.
|
QFT
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by d0zer
I also have no patience for bankroll management. I buy-in for $25 or so, 2-table 10NL until I get up to $50 and can 2-table 25NL.
I've gone broke on bat beats enough times to understand why bankroll mgmt is important. I...just....don't care enough to employ it |
It's quite possible that you'll be slightly profitable doing this kind of thing, but nowhere near as profitable as if you grind it up and actually learn to play poker.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
If you could beat 5nl you'd already be at 10nl, plain and simple. Earning 20 buyins at a game that soft should not be difficult. If you do not have the time and/or patience to stick it out you flat out do not have the tools to play poker succesfully at higher levels online.
|
QFT as well.
To OP: the more you keep doing this kind of shit, the more you're going to donate to the poker economy. Sorry, but that's pretty much how it is.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
|
|
|
daven
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,807
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
it's so easy to make money!
step 1: PWN 2nl till roll = $200
step 2: PWN 5nl till roll = $400
step 3: PWN 10nl till roll = $1000
step 4: PWN 25nl till roll = $2000
step 5: PWN 50nl till roll = $4000
step 6: PWN 100nl till roll = $10, 000
.
|
started at step 2. Moving into step 5 shortly. Bonuses and rakeback help, so does learning to play more tables
|
|
|
|
daven
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,807
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by iolzizlyi
man i seriously gotta wait till $400? i was getting excited cuz i'm getting close to $250 (which is 25 100BB buyins).
|
take a shot when you get to $250 - as long as at least some of your profit is from cards not bonuses.
|
|
|
|
daven
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up
Posts: 5,807
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by d0zer
My 'bankroll management' is:
PWN 10NL till roll = $50
PWN 25NL till roll = $150
lose 50NL till roll = $0
|
FYP
|
|
|
|
JinxT4
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 265
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Robb
I used to go broke, and now I br manage much as Drew suggests. Winning at poker rocks. For me, having Drew-like discipline rocks. That discipline helps me in ALL aspects of poker, like the ability to throw away trash hands oop when I'm card dead, or as I’m losing some BI’s while adapting my game to a new level.
Let me tell the story of my last two months that will give a perfect illustration of spenda’s point. I developed a winning base at NL10. But I get bored with grinding. Fortunately, the growing br has allowed me to take shots at MTT/SnG/PLO (properly rolled at each). When I get thin on br, I just grind exclusively at NL10.
I also want to move up to NL25. I have taken two shots at it, both with about $750 br and with a “stop loss” set at $600. I have logged about 5k hands which included about 4k hands of break-even and a loss of a dozen BI's. I wasn't playing terrible (lost seven of twelve flopped sets over two sessions, had KK under AA three times, etc. etc.). But I had to move down because I took my shots at $750 and got below my "loss limit" of $600. Here’s what’s worse, though, I was also playing poorly – not terrible, but weak tight. And when I would realize I was playing like a puss, I’d start spewing with agro moves in the wrong places against the wrong opponents, shoving all-in just prove I wasn’t weak-tight.
Now, I maybe some dumb, but I sure ain’t plumb dumb. So I would see the leaks and quit. Then I’d sit down and promise myself I wouldn’t do it again. But the weak-tight play is a problem EXACTLY BECAUSE $750 WASN'T ENOUGH BR. Maybe for someone else, but not for me. And I’m not an ubernit. I just want so badly to succeed at NL25 that having to move back down to NL10 really hurts my pride. So waiting for $1k makes sense for lots of reasons.
1. I obviously am not the care-free gambler I thought I was.
2. I need to learn patience.
3. I need to have 15 – 20 BI’s above my stop loss limit to feel comfortable at NL25.
4. I have pride, and I want desperately to move up one final time to NL25. Failing again would suck.
5. I obviously have big leaks I can plug, so let’s do it cheap at NL10.
All of this just says what spenda said in one sentence – I should have followed drew’s advice a month ago and never tried my hand at NL25. Had I done it, I might both played better and survived the variance long enough to adapt my game to the new level.
One last thing about building br that spenda and drew have mentioned before that I can attest to personally. If I am so GREAT at poker that I "SHOULD BE" up at NL25, then I ought to be killing NL10. And I'm not, I'm making about 5 - 6 ptBB/100, and folks who post here often manage double that. So I need to be smart enough to work on my game, plug leaks, post HH's and identify weak spots.
Now here’s the ironic part. I’ve been leak-plugging at NL10, but that requires some experimentation, trying new lines and new types of reads and plays that I’m not exactly comfortable with. As I’ve tried to expand my game, my win rate HAS GONE DOWN. Fine, if I’m getting better, it will soon be back up there hopefully better than before. But that’s the problem with moving up to soon. I know my game is going to have to change and get better and that my win rate will suffer. Why not let it suffer at NL10 when it’s cheap? Then I’ll learn the things I need to know and the transition will be smoother.
Sorry this got so long, but I’m writing this more for me than anyone else. I know that grinding discipline is what I need right now, and I’m posting here to promise all y’all (and myself) that I won’t take another shot at NL25 until I’ve broken the 1k mark. Then I’ll kick it’s ass, and I’ll come back here and let everyone know.
Good luck at the tables.
|
Real nice post Robb, I'm with you. I've also attempted to move up to 25NL properly rolled twice, hit my stop loss, & had to move back down to grind 10NL. After my last failed attempt (beginning of this month), I decided that I would attempt to play 10NL for the rest of the month & attempt to make it to 1K before trying again. Playing overrolled keeps me in my comfort zone as well, which I like.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
step 1: PWN 2nl till roll = $200
step 2: PWN 5nl till roll = $400
step 3: PWN 10nl till roll = $1000
step 4: PWN 25nl till roll = $2000
step 5: PWN 50nl till roll = $4000
step 6: PWN 100nl till roll = $10, 000
|
I think I like this, as it's pretty much what I've been doing. I started from the bottom, skipped step 2 (5NL = same buyin as 10NL, so I figured I'd just do 10NL when my roll hit $300 from 2NL), and will hopefully be moving to step 4 soon (gonna wait till December's over). Just gotta get bonus and/or rakeback & I'll be set (hopefully).
|
|
|
|
Andrew
|
|
Straight
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 210
|
|
iolzizlyi,
Honestly, I would advise you to seriously listen to the experienced heads on this forum. I've been where you are (has have most people who play poker) but the truth of the matter is if we (royal) can't beat the lowest limit cash games then the only thing we are going to do at the biggest stakes is be a fish for someone with smarts.
I've been out of the poker game for almost a year because I did exactly what you want to do. I thought my skill was good enough to handle the small bankroll I had. I'd jump from cash tables to MTTs/SnGs and fry my brain with huge wins and losses. Within a week my BR had gone from $5 to over $300 to being completely busted.
Poker is easy. Winning Poker is hard work and you need money to cover for the huge ups and downs, more BR than normal if you're emotional and can suffer from severe tilting. If the BR is from you buying in with outside cash then go for it, but keep an eye on exactly how much you're pumping into your account(s).
A.
|
|
|
|
iolzizlyi
|
|
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Athens, GA
Posts: 67
|
|
another question:
i was curious as to when the skill level really jumps. for instance i've heard that the $1.20 SnG's aren't much different than the $5.50 SnG's. which turned out to be pretty much true. so does that correlate at all to FR? from what i've seen, 10 and 5 and 2 are about the same, and 25 isn't much better.
thoughts?
|
|
|
|
spoonitnow
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by iolzizlyi
another question:
i was curious as to when the skill level really jumps. for instance i've heard that the $1.20 SnG's aren't much different than the $5.50 SnG's. which turned out to be pretty much true. so does that correlate at all to FR? from what i've seen, 10 and 5 and 2 are about the same, and 25 isn't much better.
thoughts?
|
At 10nl the play starts becoming decent as far as players not totally spewing chips in major ways every single hand. I imagine 2nl and 5nl play much the same since at PokerStars 2nl has a 250bb max buyin and 5nl has a 200bb max buyin, albeit it might be best for beginning players to buyin for just 100bb, especially if they're having bankroll management "issues".
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
|
|
|
d0zer
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,521
|
|
[quote="spoonitnow"]
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BankItDrew
It's quite possible that you'll be slightly profitable doing this kind of thing, but nowhere near as profitable as if you grind it up and actually learn to play poker.
|
Seems to me like a winning player should on average be winning a positive amount, the variance swinging around that positive amount, most results positive. risky of course cause of the high variance.
grinding? You must assume goin' broke too often...
|
|
|
|
spoonitnow
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by d0zer
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by spoonitnow
It's quite possible that you'll be slightly profitable doing this kind of thing, but nowhere near as profitable as if you grind it up and actually learn to play poker.
|
Seems to me like a winning player should on average be winning a positive amount, the variance swinging around that positive amount, most results positive. risky of course cause of the high variance.
grinding? You must assume goin' broke too often... |
This is true that you will be slightly profitable doing this over and over, assuming you are a winning player at the levels you play as I mentioned, but it also leaves very little room to improve, so you won't be nearly as profitable of a player than if you took it more seriously, grinded out a bankroll and moved up in stakes slowly instead of bouncing around and wasting money.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
|
|
|
spoonitnow
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by d0zer
I've bought in with $25 six times, gone broke three and cashed out three times or so with well over 10x the initial playing fairly ABC tag during a lot of that.
|
A better way would be to deposit $50 or so, grind 2nl, 5nl, 10nl, 25nl, 50nl until you're at $1k then withdraw whatever profits after that you want, keeping your $1k bankroll intact so that you'll always be able to earn.
It's not that hard to do, and in the same amount of time you could be making a lot more money than you do currently off of a similar investment in both time and money. Plus in the process you'll likely get a lot better since you won't be bouncing all around the place in stakes, which will improve your win-rate even more.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by d0zer
PWN 100NL till wifey sees how much money you're gambling with.
|
I don't see how it could possibly be such a big deal to follow some basic bankroll guidelines unless you're just a total dumbass with money (no offense intended, my post's intent is to help). From this line, I would suspect that a few hundred dollars is a big deal to you (as it is to me as well) so why in the world would you not make the small time investment in poker to grind out a decent bankroll for the stakes you're playing?
It's a very good feeling to know that anytime you want you can sit down at a computer and make money, and I can't figure out why so many people intend on passing that up by not following some basic bankroll guidelines.
Edit: Here's a quick example of how playing like that is inferior to playing with a solid bankroll.
If you're donking around at 2nl and win ten 100bb buyins, that's $20. If you put a little time into things and maintained at least a $1k bankroll for 50nl, then winning ten 100bb buyins is $500, 25 times as much. And you can do this over and over and over again instead of having to waste time by rebuilding from 2nl/5nl.
Edit: Also, this thread inspired me to write this rant.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
|
|
|
d0zer
|
|
Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,521
|
|
Ok I think you've sold me on how playing at a higher level steadily has higher payouts than pissing time at micros...
Did you really make 100k this year playing 100NL/200NL? how many hrs/week?
|
|
|
|
spoonitnow
|
|
Straight Flush
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: IRC Chat Room
Posts: 5,406
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by d0zer
Ok I think you've sold me on how playing at a higher level steadily has higher payouts than pissing time at micros...
Did you really make 100k this year playing 100NL/200NL? how many hrs/week?
|
No, my goal is $100k for the upcoming year. I did, however, make $6k in December including a $1500 bonus over about 80 hours of 100nl, although that's beside the point and more than a few players here make that much in a week or a day.
The point of all of this is that having good bankroll management is sooooo right. There's so much into it. It yields higher skill improvements, more profit, and less stress among tons of other things. There are so many reasons to follow good bankroll guidelines, and so many reasons not to jump around and gamble it up that it's ridiculous that anyone who has been on this forum for any length of time would want to do anything different unless they had a gambling problem or something.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ripptyde
I only have 2 simple rules when I am coaching a new student.
Rule # 1: don't ask questions
Rule # 2: don't ask questions
I have no interest in discussing strategy with a protege'. Your job is to remain quiet and listen. I have a very systematic approach that I will share with the right candidate and I promise that I will turn you into a force of nature and show you elements of the game of poker that you never knew existed.
|
|
English
Deutsch
Español
Français
Italiano
Nederlands
Pусский
Svenska
05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
Linear Mode
