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Fnord
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03-14-2006, 10:29 AM
Post subject: The root of all evil
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#1 (permalink)
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100NL
Wanna-be-tricky opens for $4 from the CO. He will do this with the top 20% of his hands. Overall, he plays too many hands and takes them too far post-flop.
You call in the BB with A 5
Flop is A 9 4
What's our plan for the rest of the hand?
If our opponent is kinda TAggy, but has an open range of 20% here, how does this change our plans?
How do we balance our line with the times we want to rep an Ace into an opponent that didn't like this board?
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
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Hmm...this is tough against a guy who is tricky/takes hands too far. Against a normal Tagg I would check/call flop and lead for 2/3-3/4 on the turn, folding to a raise.
Against this guy, I dunno. At first I was thinking donk-betting 1/3 of the pot, calling his raise, then check-raising the turn 2.5-3X, but that gets too much money in the pot-plus you can't really represent a draw on that flop by donk-betting so it really does look like a weak ace that he'll be able to push you off of.
Let's go with....lead for 1/2, call his raise, lead for 3/5 on turn...check/fold thereafter-this version puts in roughly $43 max whereas the previous version puts in $54, probably pot committing us if a heart, 2, or 3 falls on the turn.
There's probably a much better way but I am too concerned about my psych test in 2 hours to think...
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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LeFou
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4-of-a-Kind
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I'd prolly keep it simple: check and call with odds, which I'd approximate like this
3 fives & 2 aces make me feel pretty good. Two backdoor draws worth 1 each -- only because there's a decent chance my ace is already good.
If you try to get clever here, isn't it a case of forgetting what one plays Axs for?
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Renton
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Straight Flush
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When I have a weak top pair against someone like that, I will just check and call his c-bet, and then bet right out on the turn. Usually whether he calls this bet tells me if I am beat. If he calls, then I just try for a cheap showdown. If he raises, I just muck.
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LeFou
If you try to get clever here, isn't it a case of forgetting what one plays Axs for?
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Sorry, I play bad and forgot.
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nutsinho
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If you want play it like a puss, then just fold preflop. Hell, I wouldnt be in there out of position with A5. If we see this flop though we can't play it scared.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Fnord
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Quote:
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If you want play it like a puss, then just fold preflop. Hell, I wouldnt be in there out of position with A5. If we see this flop though we can't play it scared.
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Care to go into more detail? If we play well, is this a pre-flop fold? As for playing this weak, well with just about any hand we're going to flop some weak post-flop holdings. Where are we cutting into the CO's insta-profit on his pfr + c-bet?
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
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My problem is that if he's good, given our impression of him, we don't know when to stop check-calling. If we lead out and he calls on the flop or turn, we don't know if he's floating or if he plans to make a huge value bet on the river that we sometimes can't resist calling.
Thus, if we are playing this hand, I guess my goal is to make some sort of play that shows enough strength that he can't really think it would be a good idea to try to steal the pot. Then, we have to minimize the amount of money we bet in making this play since our hand is so marginal that we do not want to commit ourselves.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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Fnord
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I think it's also important that whatever line we generally take here has enough fold equity that we can run the same line as a bluff. Chances are neither player has an Ace.
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LeFou
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LeFou
If you try to get clever here, isn't it a case of forgetting what one plays Axs for?
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Sorry, I play bad and forgot. |
You know that's not what I meant. Just can't see what's special about this hand/what concept you're trying to introduce. Why is this called "the root of all evil"? 'cause one is tempted to get greedy here? Check & call small bets but not big ones.
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Fnord
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by LeFou
Just can't see what's special about this hand
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I think the answer to this problem is several times more profitable than stuff like laying down sets, small flushes or Kings. We've certainly had enough threads on the later.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LeFou
Check & call small bets but not big ones.
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Terrible line unless you're pretty sure your opponent will bet very predictably against a call/call/call line. Consider he could easily push us off our hand or nail us after sucking out. We also give up any chance of ever (re)stealing this board from him when we both have air.
In LHE call/call/call is more reasonable because we don't have to deal with escalating stakes on every street (where-as our position gets weaker with every card.)
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Lukie
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fold preflop
c/r flop
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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says the same thing as my post below
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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Quote:
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I think the answer to this problem is several times more profitable than stuff like laying down sets, small flushes or Kings. We've certainly had enough threads on the later.
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Agreed, folding an ace-five out of position in a heads up pot facing a preflop raise will save you far more in the long run then laying down huge, but non-nut hands in the long run.
I know that wasn't the point you were trying to make.
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Warpe
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
fold preflop
c/r flop
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What's wrong with showing strength by leading out here? Or does c/r give us a better measure of villain's hand?
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poskid_1982
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Flush
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
fold preflop
c/r flop
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What's wrong with showing strength by leading out here? Or does c/r give us a better measure of villain's hand? |
Part of the problem I have with leading out is that I want to see the turn while being in charge of the hand...Let's say you lead out and he calls u see the turn and your hand doesnt improve to 2 pair or a better draw...Your fold equity is pretty low and now you are making your coinciding bets at a larger cost vs your fold equity. A check raise accomplishes 2 things. First...You give a better definition of strength by doing it so that your fold equity is larger come the turn should he call. Also...I find that often a 1/2 pot bet works just fine as a follow through on the turn and will take your share of pots whereas the flop lead line often requires 3/4 to full size to push off an opp. Also dont forget the possibility of being raised should you lead out...Now that would be a messy situation.
PK
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Superb play sir...I always call 20% of my stack off with a gutshot draw. Excuse me while I race for my wallet.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
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first question:
whats OUR table image?
I dont like this board much. We shouldnt be here a lot i dont think. I think if opp is going to c-bet with the top 20% hands here then i lead into him and call a flop raise in preparataion for holding a bigger hand. On that i may check raise the turn anyway. I think id showdown my weak ace if i could for a cheap river just to show i play ragish stuff aggro and raising my blinds and then raising my flop leads is dangerous if you odnt have something to show, that will encourage him to take hands further for when i flop a monster (if he doesnt need encouraging)
Id like a check call line here too leading the turn but id like that line better if we have a flush draw on this board, something opp will be scared of which we can bluff at with our line (especially if my table image is laggy, im putting pressure on him to figure out what a flop call is (something i wont do often))
I think leading here is good along with calling a raise.
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underminedsk
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
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the point is, we want to be able to do this profitably on the flop with missed rags, too. I c/r on the flop. If he raises over the top again, I muck. Then I probably lead for at least 1/2 pot on the turn. If he calls, then I'm probably in check/fold mode for the river, as it looks like hes got TKGK+ and is in calldown mode.
More importantly though, I dont try to make moves with weak hands from oop.
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online br: $14,000, @400NL full ring, 100NL 6 max
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poskid_1982
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03-15-2006, 03:29 AM
Post subject: Re: The root of all evil
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#19 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Midwest
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
How do we balance our line with the times we want to rep an Ace into an opponent that didn't like this board?
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I've been reading back through this post from the bottom to the top and realize that we have gotten off topic (as usual). But this comment from your original post intrigues me Fnord. After realizing that the hand we are talking about is completely hypothetical so this discussion is more theory than anything else. Ive thought about some other types of hole cards that may also be a thought for this discussion. How does your line balance when you have air...Or a stronger flop?
Your hole cards change to Kd Jd???
Your hole cards change to Ac 4c???
PK
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Superb play sir...I always call 20% of my stack off with a gutshot draw. Excuse me while I race for my wallet.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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Board: As 9c 4h
Dead:
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 64.4277 % 60.02% 04.41% { Ah5h }
Hand 2: 35.5723 % 31.16% 04.41% { 44+, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, A6o+, KJo+, QJo }
Top 20% of hands.
More importantly, can we ever win a big pot here? Even a moderate one?
Fnord, even if the opener has a 20% PFR in this situation, do you think, even with an edge in post-flop skill, it's really worth it to take a flop? I mean, short of 2p or better, it's hard to see us winning a big pot, but we can certainly lose a huge one.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
More importantly, can we ever win a big pot here? Even a moderate one?
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Why does NLHE have to be about big pots? It's quite possible that line of thinking is a trap. Although, I certainly agree that a big part of winning big is having the best of it when all of the money goes in. However, do we just check/fold until the set over set or set over donk luckbox strikes?
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
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I see the point you are trying to make. With crystal clarity.
Do you think the hand you provided is a good example of it though? I mean in this situation, an A5s plays like such utter trash... and really the only value your A has post-flop is the fact that he's less likely to have one himself, and you might be able to win a little something if he has a big PP like QQ/KK, but at 20% raise, that's quite unlikely...
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
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I guess the question I'm trying to ask is this: Given your reads, and assuming there is at least comparable post-flop skill, is even seeing a flop +EV here?
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johnny_fish
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lukie
I guess the question I'm trying to ask is this: Given your reads, and assuming there is at least comparable post-flop skill, is even seeing a flop +EV here?
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That's the question. I don't think so. Being OOP sucks.
Anyway, I'd c/r the flop to take it down and collect the cbet. I don't see Villain calling the c/r without a better hand at this particular board, so it's c/f from there.
c/c flop is fine too if Villain likes to give away info with his turnbet or likes to fire two barrels.
Hmm. I like c/c now better than c/r.
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Fnord,
I'm interested in hearing more of your thoughts on this hand. I realize that post-flop here against his range, you are usually best.
Also consider that you will only pair your ace about 1 in 6 times, and even that represents a very dangerous double-edged sword.
Anyway, I look forward to seeing your reply.
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dj newman
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Straight
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I don't like to lead this flop...I like leading only with air and with a big hands...I don't like calling a potential reraise on the flop (with a mediocre hand)...coupled with that, we would have a big pot to contend with on the turn and river.
Hopefully you know how he deals with check-raise...does he call most of the time, or fold. If he takes hands too far, I am guessing he will probably call the reraise (If he does this, we once again have a big pot developing)...if he doesn't - check-raise is a good line.
Check - call the flop (if your reraises get you nowhere) - this keeps the pot small and gets one street behind. Most players get a little more ansy on the turn and river anyhow and will fold their junk more readily here. If an A or 5 hits I check raise. If a heart or trash hits I lead for 2/3. (I do the opposite on the turn as on the flop - lead out draws and TPNK and check-raise strong hands). If he reraises my lead out - drop your TPNK and if the price is right see the river for your draw.
These are my lines - Critique if you like.
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