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realgenius
Old 06-26-2005, 06:18 PM     Post subject: Ring vs Tourney #1 (permalink)  
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Ok guys, need some insight here. I like to think of myself as an above average tourney player. Up until this week I've played strictly SNG's and have turned a nice profit and I'm getting better and better everyday. (I also play $2/$4 limit BM whenever I can, but I'm not the best limit player) Anyway, the question is. For the first time I sat my rump down to play a $.10 NL ring game. And over the last 3 days lost my arse. ($35) I don't call what's been happening to me as "bad beats", but just people playing messed up poker. People seem to be playing 80% of the flops. Calling to the river on anything. Do I have to play super loose in these low limit games or what?

2 Hands as an example:

################################################## ######
Stage #144878083: Holdem No Limit $0.10 [ 2005-06-25 01:14:45 ]
Seat 1 - BUDDY0069 $20 in chips
Seat 2 - JACKSRBETTER $19.90 in chips
Seat 3 - WLH144 $2.40 in chips
Seat 4 - SASCACHE $24.67 in chips
Seat 5 - BLINGZ $70.92 in chips
Seat 6 - FASTOY $8.70 in chips
Seat 7 - BGDDY $14.50 in chips
Seat 8 - TIGERBOT $8.35 in chips
Seat 9 - REAL GENIUS $9.75 in chips
*** BLIND [dealer 7] ***
TIGERBOT - Post small blind $0.10
REAL GENIUS - Post big blind $0.25
BUDDY0069 - sitout (wait for BB)
REAL GENIUS - Pocket [Qs,Qd]
JACKSRBETTER - Folds
WLH144 - Folds
SASCACHE - Calls $0.25
BLINGZ - Folds
FASTOY - Folds
BGDDY - Calls $0.25
TIGERBOT - Calls $0.15
REAL GENIUS - Raises $0 to $1.25
SASCACHE - Folds
BGDDY - Calls $1
TIGERBOT - Folds
*** FLOP [2d,7c,2h] ***
REAL GENIUS - All-In $8.50
BGDDY - Calls $8.50
*** TURN [2d,7c,2h,3d] ***
*** RIVER [2d,7c,2h,3d,8h] ***
BGDDY - Show cards [3s,3h]
REAL GENIUS - Show cards [Qs,Qd]
*** RESULT ***
Total Pot($20) Rake ($1)
Board [2d,7c,2h,3d,8h]
JACKSRBETTER - Folded on the POCKET CARDS
WLH144 - Folded on the POCKET CARDS
SASCACHE - Folded on the POCKET CARDS
BLINGZ - Folded on the POCKET CARDS
FASTOY - Folded on the POCKET CARDS
BGDDY - Total ($19) HI$19)Full house, threes full of twos [3s,3h - P:3s,P:3h,B:3d,B:2h,B:2d]
TIGERBOT - Folded on the POCKET CARDS
REAL GENIUS - HI:Two pair, queens and twos [Qs,Qd - P:Qs,P:Qd,B:2h,B:2d,B:8h]

2nd Hand

Stage #145346792: Holdem No Limit $0.05 [ 2005-06-26 01:28:27 ]
Seat 1 - BNBBONANZA2 $5.20 in chips
Seat 2 - CRAZYDUDE $8.10 in chips
Seat 3 - GUAPO1958 $6.50 in chips
Seat 4 - BIGMONKEY111 $3.55 in chips
Seat 5 - LUVTWOSET1 $4.40 in chips
Seat 6 - REAL GENIUS $4.20 in chips
Seat 8 - AMJ $20.30 in chips
Seat 9 - LILANGEL6471 $3.95 in chips
*** BLIND [dealer 3] ***
BIGMONKEY111 - Post small blind $0.05
LUVTWOSET1 - Post big blind $0.10
REAL GENIUS - Pocket [8d,Jd]
REAL GENIUS - Calls $0.10
AMJ - Folds
LILANGEL6471 - Calls $0.10
BNBBONANZA2 - Calls $0.10
CRAZYDUDE - Calls $0.10
GUAPO1958 - Folds
BIGMONKEY111 - Calls $0.05
LUVTWOSET1 - Checks
*** FLOP [5c,10d,Jc] ***
BIGMONKEY111 - Checks
LUVTWOSET1 - Checks
REAL GENIUS - Bets $0.20
LILANGEL6471 - Folds
BNBBONANZA2 - Calls $0.20
CRAZYDUDE - Folds
BIGMONKEY111 - Calls $0.20
LUVTWOSET1 - Calls $0.20
*** TURN [5c,10d,Jc,3h] ***
BIGMONKEY111 - Checks
LUVTWOSET1 - Checks
REAL GENIUS - Bets $0.40
BNBBONANZA2 - Calls $0.40
BIGMONKEY111 - Calls $0.40
LUVTWOSET1 - Calls $0.40
*** RIVER [5c,10d,Jc,3h,8c] ***
BIGMONKEY111 - Bets $0.50
LUVTWOSET1 - Calls $0.50
REAL GENIUS - All-In(Raise) $0.50 to $3.50
BNBBONANZA2 - Folds
BIGMONKEY111 - All-In $2.35
LUVTWOSET1 - Folds
REAL GENIUS - returned ($0.65) : not called
*** SHOW DOWN ***
REAL GENIUS - Show cards [8d,Jd]
BIGMONKEY111 - Show cards [Qh,9c]
*** RESULT ***
Total Pot($9.20) Rake ($0.45)
Board [5c,10d,Jc,3h,8c]
BNBBONANZA2 - Folded on the RIVER
CRAZYDUDE - Folded on the FLOP
GUAPO1958 - Folded on the POCKET CARDS
BIGMONKEY111 - Total ($8.75) All-In HI$8.75)Straight, eight to queen [Qh,9c - P:Qh,B:Jc,B:10d,P:9c,B:8c]
LUVTWOSET1 - Folded on the RIVER
REAL GENIUS - HI:Two pair, jacks and eights [8d,Jd - P:Jd,B:Jc,P:8d,B:8c,B:10d]
AMJ - Folded on the POCKET CARDS
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spino1i
Old 06-26-2005, 06:39 PM #2 (permalink)  
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1st hand - Defintely a bad beat, he went all-in on a 2-outer and hit; nothing you can do about that, you played it right.

2nd hand - I think you got too attached to your top pair and you should have bet a lot more with it initially or not bet at all and folded to any large bet. When you hit two pair on the river, it doesnt at all make it that much better of a hand, as other people could have straights or sets. Pushing all-in is what I call a Bettor's Dillema - he will only call if he has a better hand than you, and will fold if he has a weaker hand, so it accomplishes nothing.

I bet 2/3 of the pot on the flop with top pair, or if there are too many people as was the case with that hand (plus your kicker was weak and you were out of position), check and try to draw to 2 pair or trips (but only if someone bets very little to give me odds to call). You did this right I think, but your play on the river was incorrect.

I also think you should have folded pre-flop with that hand in the first place, since you were way out of position and its not that strong of a hand.


These players are in fact incredibly weak, but to beat them you have to play classic Tight-Agressive poker. Raise pre-flop when you have a good hand, fold when you dont, its that simple. You should rarely be limping at all (by limping I mean only calling pre-flop) Be aggressive, make a bet if you catch a pair, force them to make decisions. Your good cards that you raise with should generally win, so you should be making quite a pretty penny that way.
BR now: $106900
Playing now: $10/10/20 - $20/40 NL live, $10/20 NL full ring online, $10/20 NL 6-max online, $20/40 FL 6-max online, $100/200 FL live
Goal: $125000 for $25/50 NL live
 
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realgenius
Old 06-26-2005, 06:59 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Good point spin. I mean I know I did the right thing with the first hand, but that guy had NO REASON at all to make that call, he does, he wins. Ugh

Your points make sense on the 2nd hand, I played that hand initially out of frustration, watching all the other guys call with less and catch some cards. I went over my last 200 hands (all from last night) with a fine tooth comb. And J8s is nothing I would ordinarily play. Thanks for the input

One more question.....Is it important to join a game with a certain stack. I always sit down with whatever the "buy in" is. But if I sit down at a $.10 with $4, there are a few guys with $20, I see them bullying people around, and I'm not intimidated by BlindStealers, but is it better to just sit down with more money or don't you think it matters?

I did win a $16 hand today at a $.10 table, 3 people went all in ahead of me and I had AA, and they magically held up, woot.
This is a true story. I'm not a paid actor. FTR does not guarantee any results. People can and do lose money when playing poker.
 
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spino1i
Old 06-26-2005, 07:04 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realgenius
Good point spin. I mean I know I did the right thing with the first hand, but that guy had NO REASON at all to make that call, he does, he wins. Ugh

Your points make sense on the 2nd hand, I played that hand initially out of frustration, watching all the other guys call with less and catch some cards. I went over my last 200 hands (all from last night) with a fine tooth comb. And J8s is nothing I would ordinarily play. Thanks for the input

One more question.....Is it important to join a game with a certain stack. I always sit down with whatever the "buy in" is. But if I sit down at a $.10 with $4, there are a few guys with $20, I see them bullying people around, and I'm not intimidated by BlindStealers, but is it better to just sit down with more money or don't you think it matters?

I did win a $16 hand today at a $.10 table, 3 people went all in ahead of me and I had AA, and they magically held up, woot.
It does matter, but not in the way you think. You want to buy-in for waht your bankroll can handle. What is your bankroll? You should be buying for about 5-7% of your bankroll at each table you play at.

No one can boss anyone around with a larger stack in ring, because they can always rebuy (assuming they have the money in their bankroll, if they play with their whole 'roll its different)
BR now: $106900
Playing now: $10/10/20 - $20/40 NL live, $10/20 NL full ring online, $10/20 NL 6-max online, $20/40 FL 6-max online, $100/200 FL live
Goal: $125000 for $25/50 NL live
 
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BobbySalami
Old 06-26-2005, 09:13 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spino1i
Raise pre-flop when you have a good hand, fold when you dont, its that simple. You should rarely be limping at all (by limping I mean only calling pre-flop) Be aggressive, make a bet if you catch a pair, force them to make decisions. Your good cards that you raise with should generally win, so you should be making quite a pretty penny that way.
Limping is a good option much of the time in micro-limits in late position.....you want to limp with small PP's, suited connectors/gappers, AXs with good position. People at micro-limits will let you see the flop cheap with these hands and pay you off when you hit......
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spino1i
Old 06-26-2005, 09:19 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbySalami
Quote:
Originally Posted by spino1i
Raise pre-flop when you have a good hand, fold when you dont, its that simple. You should rarely be limping at all (by limping I mean only calling pre-flop) Be aggressive, make a bet if you catch a pair, force them to make decisions. Your good cards that you raise with should generally win, so you should be making quite a pretty penny that way.
Limping is a good option much of the time in micro-limits in late position.....you want to limp with small PP's, suited connectors/gappers, AXs with good position. People at micro-limits will let you see the flop cheap with these hands and pay you off when you hit......
small PP's you want to minraise to juice the pot a bit. suited connectors/gappers you should not be playing because your drawing to a very low flush. And you will lose your stack should you run into a bigger flush. Ax suited depends sometimes its ok but its not my favorite hand
BR now: $106900
Playing now: $10/10/20 - $20/40 NL live, $10/20 NL full ring online, $10/20 NL 6-max online, $20/40 FL 6-max online, $100/200 FL live
Goal: $125000 for $25/50 NL live
 
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realgenius
Old 06-27-2005, 12:20 AM #7 (permalink)  
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I would have to say that I see alot of people playing like BobbySalami suggested. And while I'd have to say I agreed with him, that's kind of how I was playing, except maybe a little tighter, I wouldn't suited connectors unless they were high, and I would never call AX unless the X was a T or higher. I've been playing as Spino1i suggested all day, and played strict tight aggressive style and I doubled my miniscule bankroll at Absolute, basically got back all the money I lost yesterday, so I'll keep going with this and see where it leads for now. Thanks for the great input guys.
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realgenius
Old 06-27-2005, 03:19 PM #8 (permalink)  
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So I've been doing well with the advice, but I had a hand last night at a $.25 table where I had QQ, so I raised to $2 preflop. Two guys call. Flop coms Ks As 8d. I check. Other two guys check. Turn is a 2d. I bet $1.50, 2nd guy calls, third guy folds. River comes Jd. I bet $2.00. Guy calls flips over Td 7d, takes the pot down with a flush. I about lost it. Eventually I was able to get the money back and then some, but I don't think I played this wrong. I can't see betting on the flop with 2 overcards.
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spino1i
Old 06-27-2005, 03:43 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by realgenius
So I've been doing well with the advice, but I had a hand last night at a $.25 table where I had QQ, so I raised to $2 preflop. Two guys call. Flop coms Ks As 8d. I check. Other two guys check. Turn is a 2d. I bet $1.50, 2nd guy calls, third guy folds. River comes Jd. I bet $2.00. Guy calls flips over Td 7d, takes the pot down with a flush. I about lost it. Eventually I was able to get the money back and then some, but I don't think I played this wrong. I can't see betting on the flop with 2 overcards.
If the other two guys had position on you, absolutely nothing you can do. If you had position on them, I would bet on the flop.
BR now: $106900
Playing now: $10/10/20 - $20/40 NL live, $10/20 NL full ring online, $10/20 NL 6-max online, $20/40 FL 6-max online, $100/200 FL live
Goal: $125000 for $25/50 NL live
 
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BobbySalami
Old 06-27-2005, 09:25 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spino1i
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbySalami
Quote:
Originally Posted by spino1i
Raise pre-flop when you have a good hand, fold when you dont, its that simple. You should rarely be limping at all (by limping I mean only calling pre-flop) Be aggressive, make a bet if you catch a pair, force them to make decisions. Your good cards that you raise with should generally win, so you should be making quite a pretty penny that way.
Limping is a good option much of the time in micro-limits in late position.....you want to limp with small PP's, suited connectors/gappers, AXs with good position. People at micro-limits will let you see the flop cheap with these hands and pay you off when you hit......
small PP's you want to minraise to juice the pot a bit. suited connectors/gappers you should not be playing because your drawing to a very low flush. And you will lose your stack should you run into a bigger flush. Ax suited depends sometimes its ok but its not my favorite hand
Im talking micro-limits only. The limits you play at are much larger and have a much different style of play.

You dont have to juice the pot in micro-limits....the fish will still pay you off. You only raise to isolate the field.
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