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wufwugy
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12-02-2006, 04:10 AM
Post subject: a rare and difficult preflop situation
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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50$ fullring
UTG1: (Hero, 77) 50$
MP: 80$
CO: 6$
Hero open raises 2$, MP calls, CO pushes 6$ all in, Hero pushes 48$ all in.
how's Hero's line?
this is a hand i had a few days back yet played differently than this. upon further analysis i believe this line is the correct line. my reads are that MP will slowplay a big pair about half the time that he's got one against an initial raise, CO could have anything, and that playing a side pot with a bloated main pot OOP heads up with a medium pair against an undefined hand is one of the worst non-all in situations heading to a flop.
what you think?
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martindcx1e
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12-02-2006, 06:53 AM
Post subject: Re: a rare and difficult preflop situation
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#2 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
50$ fullring
UTG1: (Hero, 77) 50$
MP: 80$
CO: 6$
Hero open raises 2$, MP calls, CO pushes 6$ all in, Hero pushes 48$ all in.
how's Hero's line?
this is a hand i had a few days back yet played differently than this. upon further analysis i believe this line is the correct line. my reads are that MP will slowplay a big pair about half the time that he's got one against an initial raise, CO could have anything, and that playing a side pot with a bloated main pot OOP heads up with a medium pair against an undefined hand is one of the worst non-all in situations heading to a flop.
what you think?
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bad. you have a read that villain is capable of slowplaying big pairs in spots like this...this is the type of person you should NOT be doing this to.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: ISHPERMING MISHIGEN
Posts: 5,042
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I'd just flat call the allin, esspecially since whant martin said. But the more important thing in this hand is your biggest leak... YOUR AVATAR.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by givememyleg
I'd just flat call the allin, esspecially since whant martin said. But the more important thing in this hand is your biggest leak... YOUR AVATAR.
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that avatar makes me want to die
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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wufwugy
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12-02-2006, 07:15 AM
Post subject: Re: a rare and difficult preflop situation
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#5 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
50$ fullring
UTG1: (Hero, 77) 50$
MP: 80$
CO: 6$
Hero open raises 2$, MP calls, CO pushes 6$ all in, Hero pushes 48$ all in.
how's Hero's line?
this is a hand i had a few days back yet played differently than this. upon further analysis i believe this line is the correct line. my reads are that MP will slowplay a big pair about half the time that he's got one against an initial raise, CO could have anything, and that playing a side pot with a bloated main pot OOP heads up with a medium pair against an undefined hand is one of the worst non-all in situations heading to a flop.
what you think?
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bad. you have a read that villain is capable of slowplaying big pairs in spots like this...this is the type of person you should NOT be doing this to. |
it seems you may have misinterpreted the circumstances.
the read is that about half the time he has a big pair he'll just call a raise. he calls far more often with other stuff.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by givememyleg
I'd just flat call the allin, esspecially since whant martin said. But the more important thing in this hand is your biggest leak... YOUR AVATAR.
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hahahahahahah i love this avatar. partly because some people hate it, partly because some people think it's me, and mainly because it's super hilarious.
and i did call. then ended up eventually folding the best hand. very difficult to play in that situation. far moreso than it seems.
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martindcx1e
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12-02-2006, 07:43 AM
Post subject: Re: a rare and difficult preflop situation
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#7 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
Quote:
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
50$ fullring
UTG1: (Hero, 77) 50$
MP: 80$
CO: 6$
Hero open raises 2$, MP calls, CO pushes 6$ all in, Hero pushes 48$ all in.
how's Hero's line?
this is a hand i had a few days back yet played differently than this. upon further analysis i believe this line is the correct line. my reads are that MP will slowplay a big pair about half the time that he's got one against an initial raise, CO could have anything, and that playing a side pot with a bloated main pot OOP heads up with a medium pair against an undefined hand is one of the worst non-all in situations heading to a flop.
what you think?
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bad. you have a read that villain is capable of slowplaying big pairs in spots like this...this is the type of person you should NOT be doing this to. |
it seems you may have misinterpreted the circumstances.
the read is that about half the time he has a big pair he'll just call a raise. he calls far more often with other stuff. |
i didn't misinterpret anything. a very large majority of players are 3betting AA/KK (and usually QQ) every single time they get them. so if this guy only calls half the time then there's a much higher chance of him having a bigger pair than there would normally be. this is the type of player you don't want to be shoving 77 at preflop.
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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wufwugy
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12-02-2006, 07:58 AM
Post subject: Re: a rare and difficult preflop situation
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#8 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
i didn't misinterpret anything. a very large majority of players are 3betting AA/KK (and usually QQ) every single time they get them. so if this guy only calls half the time then there's a much higher chance of him having a bigger pair than there would normally be. this is the type of player you don't want to be shoving 77 at preflop.
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nearly everybody at my tables play big pairs like such.
and let's say approximately 15% of the time MP has a bigger pair in this situation and will call an all in, and 15% of the time MP has a worse hand and will call an all in, and the rest of the time he folds. you think that i should just call and enter into a terrible postflop situation?
dont underestimate how bad the postflop situation is. that's actually why i posted this hand. because i feel playing this hand postflop is so bad that making a move that looks wrong (pushing all in) is actually right.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!
Posts: 8,181
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3 bet fold to a push. If he slow plays big pairs preflop then change
your preflop range so that he has to start 3betting big pairs to
kill your implied odds if you open with a non-standard range
and standard small pairs etc.
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martindcx1e
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12-02-2006, 04:30 PM
Post subject: Re: a rare and difficult preflop situation
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#10 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
i didn't misinterpret anything. a very large majority of players are 3betting AA/KK (and usually QQ) every single time they get them. so if this guy only calls half the time then there's a much higher chance of him having a bigger pair than there would normally be. this is the type of player you don't want to be shoving 77 at preflop.
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nearly everybody at my tables play big pairs like such.
I'm sorry but I seriously doubt this. Make sure you're not exaggerating to support your play.
and let's say approximately 15% of the time MP has a bigger pair in this situation and will call an all in, and 15% of the time MP has a worse hand and will call an all in, and the rest of the time he folds. you think that i should just call and enter into a terrible postflop situation?
It's a little tough to just assign a percentage to it, but I think it just boils down to you taking down a small pot most times and losing a huge pot the rest of the time. |
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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lol at this being a HORRIBLE postflop situation. he's not going to bluff unless he's either super good or super retarded
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Quote:
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lol at this being a HORRIBLE postflop situation. he's not going to bluff unless he's either super good or super retarded
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only some of it has to do with him bluffing.
because the pot is bloated, his hand is undefined, one player is all in, and i have a good but not great hand when unimproved, im most likely gonna hafta put in my entire stack if i want to see showdown.
on the flop i will probably have around 2/5ths of my stack in, and the pot will be bigger than my remaining stack. i can very easily put in half my stack and lose or put in my entire stack and pay off a worse hand that hit.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miffed22001
3 bet fold to a push.
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if i raise small he'll almost always call and we'll be playing for stacks even more often. if i raise big and he calls i dont see how my entire stack wont go in. if i raise big and he pushes then i may be getting 4:1 and will call (he may also push with AK or something).
Quote:
If he slow plays big pairs preflop then change
your preflop range so that he has to start 3betting big pairs to
kill your implied odds if you open with a non-standard range
and standard small pairs etc.
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he has a large range of hands he'll coldcall with, is almost always transparent on the flop with a slowplayed big pair, and wont change much how he plays based on how i play.
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wufwugy
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12-02-2006, 07:55 PM
Post subject: Re: a rare and difficult preflop situation
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#14 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by martindcx1e
I'm sorry but I seriously doubt this. Make sure you're not exaggerating to support your play.
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many of my opponents hate not getting action on their big pairs preflop, and love getting all in post flop and trapping.
Quote:
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It's a little tough to just assign a percentage to it, but I think it just boils down to you taking down a small pot most times and losing a huge pot the rest of the time.
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yea any percentage i assign is wrong anyways.
and i would agree if postflop play was much more cut and dry and cheaper in this situation.
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
Posts: 3,905
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worst avatar ever
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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hahah just changed it
ill have that one and an even better one back sometime later
and anybody who doesn't like it doesn't have a sense of humor.
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martindcx1e
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 3,614
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best avatar ever
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Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject. So you know you are getting the best possible information.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by wufwugy
Quote:
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lol at this being a HORRIBLE postflop situation. he's not going to bluff unless he's either super good or super retarded
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only some of it has to do with him bluffing.
because the pot is bloated, his hand is undefined, one player is all in, and i have a good but not great hand when unimproved, im most likely gonna hafta put in my entire stack if i want to see showdown.
on the flop i will probably have around 2/5ths of my stack in, and the pot will be bigger than my remaining stack. i can very easily put in half my stack and lose or put in my entire stack and pay off a worse hand that hit. |
umm if by 2/5 of your stack you meant 3/25 then yeah...
this hand isnt hard to play. call the reraise, assuming he calls and u miss your set, lead flops where you're likely good and fold to resistance. not a tough hand at all.
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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Quote:
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umm if by 2/5 of your stack you meant 3/25 then yeah...
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beginning of hand my stack is 50$. if i and MP call then heading to the flop the pot is 18$ and my stack is 44$. on the large majority of flops i am going to lead out. it's debatable what is the correct amount, but potting it puts my stack at 26$ and the pot 36$. if i half pot it then my stack is 35$ and the pot is 27$
nothing like 3/25. and not leading near the pot size is incorrect, imo.
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this hand isnt hard to play. call the reraise, assuming he calls and u miss your set, lead flops where you're likely good and fold to resistance. not a tough hand at all.
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what this amounts to is me either 1) putting my entire stack in by showdown or 2) hoping that he checks behind when i check on whatever streets i must check on to avoid putting my stack in.
also, i played it exactly how you propose and ended up folding the best hand to his semi bluff on the turn.
flop is J53 two flush, you 3/4 pot it, he calls, turn is 8 non-flush, whaddaya do? if you check and he pushes all in giving you approximately 2:1? your read is that he'll play drawing, marginal made, and excellent hands passively against your bets, yet play them aggressively when you show weakness. you dont know his bluffing capabilities.
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Carl Clownshoes
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Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1
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Let's see what our Lord and Saviour has to say...
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givememyleg
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WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
Administrator
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: ISHPERMING MISHIGEN
Posts: 5,042
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Carl Clownshoes... now that's a unique one.
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"The Dragon in My Garage" by Carl Sagan
I say onto you, I've felt the dragon! I felt the touch of his tail, the breath of his fire, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that the dragon exists!
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