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In a raised pot is there a difference between 99 and 22?

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KY_Ace

03-04-2006, 08:41 AM Post subject: In a raised pot is there a difference between 99 and 22?

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Toronto, Canada

Posts: 259

In a raised pot most players are playing 2 kinds of hands 2 big cards i.e. AK, AQ, KQ or pocket pairs. I used to rarely raise 88 or lower pre-flop because I considered them small pairs that I was just set camping with. I usually raise 99 in late position if nobody else has raised. I've just started raising all PPs in position because in a raised pot I don't think there is much of a difference between 99 and 22. If the flop is 8 high your 22 are usually just as strong as your 99 because players will have 2 cards higher than 9 or a PP, the only difference with 22 is that you might have to bluff out a player with 33-88, which shouldn't be to hard if they don't improve, especially if that scarry ace pops up on the turn!

Here are a few exmples of playing small pockets like I play 99:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 ($11.05)
UTG+2 ($18.02)
Hero ($10.55)
MP2 ($9.95)
MP3 ($13.35)
CO ($8.16)
Button ($9.40)
SB ($13.49)
BB ($14.51)
UTG ($9.05)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 5

, 5

. CO posts a blind of $0.10. SB posts a blind of $0.05.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, UTG+2 calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.4, 2 folds, CO (poster) calls $0.30, Button calls $0.40, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.30, UTG+2 calls $0.30.

Flop: ($2.15) 8

, 3

, 8

(5 players)
UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 bets $0.66, Hero calls $0.66, CO folds, Button folds, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: ($3.47) 8

(2 players)
UTG+2 bets $9.73, Hero calls $9.49 (All-In).

River: ($22.69) 4

(2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $22.69

Results in white below:
UTG+2 has Jh 5h (three of a kind, eights).
Hero has 5c 5s (full house, eights full of fives).
Outcome: Hero wins $22.45. UTG+2 wins $0.23.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

saw flop|saw showdown

CO ($4.74)
Button ($20.95)
SB ($16.01)
BB ($10)
UTG ($2.15)
UTG+1 ($12.59)
MP1 ($20.24)
MP2 ($24.39)
Hero ($17.47)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 8

, 8

. SB posts a blind of $0.05.
4 folds, Hero raises to $0.4, CO calls $0.40, 3 folds.

Flop: ($0.95) T

, 6

, K

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.1, Hero calls $0.10.

Turn: ($1.15) A

(2 players)
Hero bets $0.56, CO calls $0.56.

River: ($2.27) 6

(2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: $2.27

Results in white below:
Hero has 8s 8d (two pair, eights and sixes).
CO has 7s 8c (one pair, sixes).
Outcome: Hero wins $2.27.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

saw flop|saw showdown

CO ($9.55)
Hero ($19.40)
SB ($4.17)
BB ($19.97)
UTG ($10.35)
UTG+1 ($4.45)
MP1 ($15.64)
MP2 ($11.43)
MP3 ($6.20)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 3

, 3

. SB posts a blind of $0.05.
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.10, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.4, 1 fold, BB calls $0.30, MP2 folds.

Flop: ($0.95) 4

, K

, 4

(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1, BB folds.

Final Pot: $1.95

Results in white below:
No showdown. Hero wins $1.95.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

saw flop|saw showdown

MP3 ($6.89)
CO ($10.18)
Hero ($19.75)
SB ($7.79)
BB ($7.70)
UTG ($12.78)
UTG+1 ($28.30)
MP1 ($12.05)
MP2 ($11.54)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 4

, 4

. SB posts a blind of $0.05.
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.10, MP2 calls $0.10, MP3 calls $0.10, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.4, 2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.30, MP3 calls $0.30.

Flop: ($1.45) Q

, 8

, 4

(3 players)
MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets $0.7, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $0.70.

Turn: ($2.85) 3

(2 players)
MP3 checks, Hero bets $1.8, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: $4.65

Results in white below:
No showdown. Hero wins $4.65.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

saw flop|saw showdown

MP3 ($6.75)
CO ($8.50)
Hero ($42.61)
SB ($6)
BB ($10)
UTG ($9.60)
UTG+1 ($9.60)
MP1 ($9.90)
MP2 ($9.87)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8

, 8

. SB posts a blind of $0.05.
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.10, 1 fold, CO calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.4, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.30, CO calls $0.30.

Flop: ($1.35) 5

, Q

, 7

(3 players)
MP2 checks, CO checks, Hero bets $0.65, MP2 folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: $2

Results in white below:
No showdown. Hero wins $2.

I would've posted some BoDog hands that I played today but the converter dosn't work for BoDog, basicallly there were a few hands where I raised pre-flop with a small PP, called a weak bet on the flop and then bet 1/2 the pot on the turn when they checked to me and took it down. There were also a couple BoDog hands where I raissed with 66 or something similar and the flop came 8 high, they made a weak bet and I raised them on the flop and took down the pot.

My point here is that when the flop comes low your PP will usually win, whether it's 99 or 22. raising with 22-99 is effective for 2 reasons; 1: you make the pot big eneugh pre-flop to stack TP if you flop a set, 2: you take control of the hand by raising and can rep an ace or king or an overpair, and make it hard for them to show down a weak hand, especially if you have position. What good is their pair of 6s if the board is 35TK on the turn and they're checking to you? does it really matter if you have 22 or 99 at this point?

{solicitation URL removed by Xianti}

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Lukie

03-05-2006, 07:33 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: back with a vengeance

Posts: 3,307

Quote:

1.. I think you underestimate the range that many players will raise with.. ie 89s can be a raising hand for me, although obviously that isn't standard. The difference in post-flop playability between 99 and 22 is quite substantial, although I do see your point how they often play very similarly to a tight range of high cards/high pairs. Things like counterfeiting, pair over pair (ie 66 v 99 on T53 board), set over set, straight/flush value, etc. happen often enough for there really to be a difference.

Quote:

My point here is that when the flop comes low your PP will usually win

You often have the best hand, but (especially against a tight player), this attitude can be costly in my opinion. IE a tight player opens EP, you call with, say 55, flop comes rags giving you no set or draw, you are likely <50% equity against his range and stuck in a win small, lose big situation to boot.

Quote:

What good is their pair of 6s if the board is 35TK on the turn and they're checking to you? does it really matter if you have 22 or 99 at this point?

One of these hands is a 20:1 favorite over the other, so I'd propose that it matters a great deal. If you bet with one it is a bluff, and the other for value. Yes, it matters. In practice, I also find many times hands like this get checked down anyway...

Lukie

03-05-2006, 07:37 AM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Location: back with a vengeance

Posts: 3,307

villain PFR = 3.8%

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

297,000 games 0.078 secs 3,807,692 games/sec

Board: 2c 6d 9h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 63.6384 % 63.64% 00.00% { TT+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 2: 36.3616 % 36.36% 00.00% { 55 }

Fnord

03-05-2006, 07:40 AM

#4 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Yeah there is a difference. Didn't have a post-flop read on the guy until this hand played out.... oppps...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Fnord ($99)
CO ($93.85)
Button ($40.40)
SB ($31.80)
BB ($75.95)
UTG ($61.10)
UTG+1 ($72.65)
MP1 ($19.95)
MP2 ($100)

Preflop: Fnord is MP3 with 2

, 2

.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $1, 2 folds, Fnord raises to $4, 4 folds, UTG+1 calls $3.

Flop: ($9.50) J

, 3

, J

(2 players)
UTG+1 bets $3, Fnord calls $3.

Turn: ($15.50) 5

(2 players)
UTG+1 bets $5, Fnord raises to $15, UTG+1 calls $10.

River: ($45.50) A

(2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Fnord checks.

Final Pot: $45.50

Results in white below:
UTG+1 has Ac 3s (two pair, aces and jacks).
Fnord has 2h 2d (two pair, jacks and twos).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins $45.50.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

03-05-2006, 08:59 AM

#5 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

I raise almost twice as much pre-flop as Lukie, so that being said...

Hand 1: The flop call is bad because of the 3 players remaining to act.
Hand 2: This is why position is huge.
Hand 3: Standard

Hand 4: I don't like this raise, I don't see the point in either building a pot or trying to push 3+ other people off their hands at this level. You have the button, a good hand and opponents that suck and are out of position with likely terrible hands. You want to play here with lots of money behind.
Hand 5: Somewhat standard depending on what I think of the limpers + blinds, but I would raise more pre-flop to shut out the blinds and maybe get a limper to cry uncle while the other guy sees flop to keep you honest, then changes his mind when his small pair or dogshit hand misses horribly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

KY_Ace

03-05-2006, 11:20 PM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Toronto, Canada

Posts: 259

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

Quote:

What good is their pair of 6s if the board is 35TK on the turn and they're checking to you? does it really matter if you have 22 or 99 at this point?

I don't know if you could value bet 99 here and get called, but you're right about one thing. The 9s can be checked down with no need to risk a big bet bluffing out a small pair. So on a 35TK board if you checked down the 9s and bet the 2s you'd probably win the same amount, but when you lose, you would lose more with the 2s because you'd have to fire an extra round on the turn in an attempt to push out hands between 22 and 99. So you have a higher net gain with the 99.

Then agian you never can be too sure what people will call you with, I played a hand on BoDog yesterday where I bet 2/3 the pot on the river with 33 repping the ace on the river and got called by king high

I won the pot + the bet on the river and added to my notes, "NEVER TRY TO BLUFF THIS GUY AGAIN!".

{solicitation URL removed by Xianti}

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In a raised pot is there a difference between 99 and 22?

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