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Questionable TT hand

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JeffreyGB

04-24-2005, 04:45 AM Post subject: Questionable TT hand

#1 (permalink)

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I felt fairly confident that I had the best hand on the flop. When I got callers, I thought that they might have a Q with a low kicker or a J, but figured that they'd either fold (which happened often at this table), or I could catch one of my many outs. Thinking about it now, this was a clear fold when I got reraised, but I fell in love with the pocket pair + str draw and ignored pot odds. What do you put my reraiser on?

Game #387861084: Texas Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1) - 2005/04/23 - 13:16:11 (ET)
Table "RivaRidge" Seat 9 is the button.
Seat 1: DanHamton ($36.50 in chips)
Seat 2: Alan24029 sits out
Seat 3: Stick619 ($83.25 in chips)
Seat 4: Morgie001 ($78.17 in chips)
Seat 5: Quent0612 ($1.50 in chips)
Seat 6: Brucie001 ($54.50 in chips)
Seat 7: JGB146 ($44 in chips)
Seat 8: hexecutor ($68.25 in chips)
Seat 9: AAwanted ($110.25 in chips)
Seat 10: Top_gun ($53.17 in chips)
Top_gun: posts small blind $0.50
DanHamton: posts big blind $1
----- HOLE CARDS -----
dealt to JGB146 [Tc Td]
Stick619: folds
Morgie001: calls $1
Quent0612: calls $1
Brucie001: calls $1
JGB146: calls $1
hexecutor: folds
AAwanted: folds
Top_gun: folds
DanHamton: checks
----- FLOP ----- [Qs 2h Js]
DanHamton: checks
Morgie001: checks
Quent0612: checks
Brucie001: checks
JGB146: bets $4
DanHamton: calls $4
Morgie001: folds
Quent0612: is all-in $0.50
Brucie001: calls $4
----- TURN ----- [Qs 2h Js][9d]
DanHamton: checks
Brucie001: checks
JGB146: bets $7
DanHamton: raises to $31.50 and is all-in
Brucie001: folds
JGB146: to act

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Bmxicle

04-24-2005, 06:04 AM

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Limping ten's is fine, but when you do that you meed to conciously make the decision that you are playing it for trips, i mean if there are no overs, you can bet it, but if you come up against any resistance you have to be willing to lay it down.

That looks to me like K10 or 108, classic check calling and reacting to the straight card. Regardless, even he if wasn't drawing you can pretty much only beat a bluff or bottom pair. Its also possible they were slowplaying trips and got scared by the straight card, and decided they wanted to push you out.

Also, another reason to fold, is because you got no information off the flop, if you had bet, you'd be able to put someone on a hand better.

With unimproved tens you want as few people in the pot, and you want to get information on every street you can.

LeFou

04-24-2005, 06:09 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Two calls, then a bet-out? You're beat. bye.

Fnord

04-24-2005, 06:10 AM

#4 (permalink)

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You screwed this up when you bet the turn into a protected pot. A big raise like that basically turns your hand into 72o (or 74o I guess around here.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

JeffreyGB

04-24-2005, 07:02 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

You screwed this up when you bet the turn into a protected pot. A big raise like that basically turns your hand into 72o (or 74o I guess around here.)

Protected pot = because he called on the flop? Should have checked behind on the turn then? After starting to think about my outs, I almost did just that. Got caught up in my aggression though, and thinking "well now I have a straight draw too"

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Fnord

04-24-2005, 07:09 AM Post subject: Re: Questionable TT hand

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

Quent0612: is all-in $0.50

Protected pot. Your loss of fold equity makes an even stronger case for checking behind here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

JeffreyGB

04-24-2005, 07:25 AM

#7 (permalink)

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His side pot was less than 1/4 of the pot...is it still notably protected?

I'm unfamiliar with the term protected pot, so I'm honestly trying to learn here.

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Fnord

04-24-2005, 07:31 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

His side pot was less than 1/4 of the pot...is it still notably protected?

Meh, good point. I still think don't like the bet, just the protected pot strengthened the case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeffreyGB

I'm unfamiliar with the term protected pot, so I'm honestly trying to learn here.

A protected pot is one that is pretty much only going to be won via showdown, hence there is no value in bluffing. Usually because someone is already all-in. Sometimes a pot is effectivly protected because there is a player so horrible that he's going to showdown. Another time a pot becomes protected is if so much money goes into it pre-flop that at least two players are almost always going to showdown.

Consider a limit game, with two good players and a sucker.

Good player A bets, sucker calls, good player B raises. Player A should fold any lukewarm hand without pot-odds on a redraw because Player B is almost never bluffing in this "protected pot." The sucker protects you PERFECTLY from a bluff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

JeffreyGB

04-24-2005, 07:39 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Meh, good point. I still think don't like the bet, just the protected pot strengthened the case.

Yeah, me neither.

Thanks for the explanation.

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Fnord

04-24-2005, 08:15 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Alright, one other NL concept to wrap your brain around.

Lets say you're heads-up on the turn (for simplicity)

If you have a 0% chance to win showdown, you should consider betting if you can do so profitably as it's easy to throw your hand away if raised.

If you have a small chance to win at showdown now we're in the semi-bluff territory. If you're called you still have a shot to win, so you don't need to get the other guy to fold as often, yet you don't mind throwing your hand away here either.

If you have a draw that's less than 40-50%, but still very strong (like here), you really should check behind because if you're raised you will be in a very marginal spot of calling vs folding to protect your equity in the pot. Also, you want money behind when your draw hits. The raise destroys your profit and you must give up folding equity to protect your draw equity. Also, consider that if your opponent has more equity than you, you have exploited his mistake of checking to you by checking behind.

If you're in a spot where you're way ahead or way behind (like A8o on a A77K board, or KK on an Axxx board), you should check unless your opponent is extremely passive. If you bet you will often fold a worse hand or even have to fold when a worse hand goes over the top of you. Although, the tough part about this is that he still can push you off your hand on the river, so you got to figure if a turn bet might be the cheapest route to showdown, your chances to improve on the river and how much you would mind throwing away the best hand.

If you have a very good chance to win showdown you should bet for value and welcome a raise.

If you're a near lock, it's a very different problem and one that generates more discussion on boards than it really warrents because problems like that are fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Greedo017

04-24-2005, 11:55 AM

#11 (permalink)

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newly restated: i think you know what everyone thinks of the turn bet. but, to his raise you're looking at paying 24 into a 55ish pot, and honestly i don't think you're winning this 1/3 of the time. your outs are as clean as fire hydrants.

straight wouldn't surprise me, but i'm thinking more that he got scared by the 9 and has a set or aa/kk

Cocco_Bill

04-24-2005, 12:01 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedo017

i think you know what everyone thinks of the turn bet. but, to his raise you're looking at paying 24 into a 55ish pot, you need to win 2/3's of the time, and honestly i don't think you're winning this 2/3's of the time. your outs are as clean as a fire hydrant.

the guy seems like he likes to slowplay, so aa/kk wouldn't surprise me, but more likely k-10, qj, qq, jj, etc.

Uh..

you never need to win more than half the time to justify a call

Greedo017

04-24-2005, 12:05 PM

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not necessarily, that depends on what's being wagered (j/k btw)

JeffreyGB

04-24-2005, 04:00 PM

#14 (permalink)

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He turned over KT btw. Once the 9 came my chance of winning actually hit 0% (though I didn't know it at the time).

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