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QQQ with a flush on the table

  
 
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Borax
Old 06-01-2006, 11:16 AM     Post subject: QQQ with a flush on the table #1 (permalink)  
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NL ($0.25/$0.50) Ring game

MP2 ($7)
Hero (MP3) ($67.62)
CO ($46.05)
Button ($49.25)
Sitting out ($50)
BB ($46.98)
Sitting out ($50)
UTG ($51.80)
UTG+1 ($52.65)
MP1 ($51.55)

dealt to Hero

BB posts $0.50
UTG folds
UTG+1: calls $0.50
MP1 folds
MP2 folds
Hero: raises to $2
CO folds
Button folds
BB folds
UTG+1: calls $1.50

----- FLOP -----


UTG+1: bets $2
Hero: raises to $8
UTG+1: calls $6

----- TURN -----


UTG+1: bets $2
Hero: calls $2

----- RIVER -----


UTG+1: bets $15
Hero:
------------------------

Do I lay my set down here or do I call?
Anything I should have done different earlier in the hand?
'Well, obviously, this is not meant to be taken literally. It refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.'
 
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jackvance
Old 06-01-2006, 11:20 AM #2 (permalink)  
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 Yeah u lay it down. You don't have a set anymore. You have a flush. And any club he has above 2 - so any club - beats your flush.
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Borax
Old 06-01-2006, 11:25 AM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jackvance
Yeah u lay it down. You don't have a set anymore. You have a flush. And any club he has above 2 - so any club - beats your flush.
What about my call on the turn? Should I have raised again?
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jackvance
Old 06-01-2006, 03:09 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 I like your call. If he doesn't have the flush, and you raise then he's folding (ie you only fold out the hands you beat anyway), and if he does have the flush (which I think is likely), you just shot yourself in the foot. I like to see if one of my 10 outs (to a boat/quads) will hit on the river as cheaply as possible here.
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Rondavu
Old 06-01-2006, 03:20 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Very often just call the flop in this spot against most opponents. You want to encourage hands you have beat to put more money in, while getting priced in by players you're drawing against.

There are exceptions, such as the guy who always calls the flop raise and instachecks the turn no matter how strong his hand is. Even then I would raise to like $5.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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EricE
Old 06-01-2006, 05:25 PM #6 (permalink)  
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I like how its played. Fold the river.
On the turn I think he has a flush and is betting weak to make you think he doesn't.
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Lukie
Old 06-01-2006, 05:56 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 good up til the river, where you make the easiest fold ever.
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Lukie
Old 06-01-2006, 05:58 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
Very often just call the flop in this spot against most opponents. You want to encourage hands you have beat to put more money in, while getting priced in by players you're drawing against.

There are exceptions, such as the guy who always calls the flop raise and instachecks the turn no matter how strong his hand is. Even then I would raise to like $5.
I really disagree with this entire post. Why do we want to give a free or cheap card here?
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Rondavu
Old 06-01-2006, 06:44 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
Very often just call the flop in this spot against most opponents. You want to encourage hands you have beat to put more money in, while getting priced in by players you're drawing against.

There are exceptions, such as the guy who always calls the flop raise and instachecks the turn no matter how strong his hand is. Even then I would raise to like $5.
I really disagree with this entire post. Why do we want to give a free or cheap card here?
It's not free. The player made a bet that detroyed his own drawing odds. He's already incorrect since he misjudged fold equity. Don't start building pots when you're either way behind, or the opponent isn't willing to build one. If you know a player is aggressive enough to semibluff J-A of suit unmade, then raise the flop. You better be damn sure though.

By raising the flop, you're discouraging the villains weak range. You need this value to make the whole scenerio more profitable longterm.

Let's not forget the board technically beats you, and if it doesn't, it scares a lot of opponents who may be willing to pay the pot incorrectly if you don't scare them off it.

Imagine opponent has AA neither of suit or even one of suit. He bets the flop, bets the turn 1/2 to 3/4, and then check to you on a safe river. You launch a pot bet out there he's calling all day. You raise the flop, he folds earlier with neither of suit, and may fold the river value bet with one of suit that didn't improve. Sometimes he hits a high flush into your boat.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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Borax
Old 06-01-2006, 11:13 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Hm.... very interesting thought to call the flop bet, but I must say that it feels much safer to get an answer on the flop by raising. If I call it feels like he just bought a cheap turn, doesn't it?
He could be drawing to a straight as well on that flop.

I folded to his bet on the river. I might have called a very small bet though.
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Lukie
Old 06-02-2006, 05:43 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
It's not free. The player made a bet that detroyed his own drawing odds. He's already incorrect since he misjudged fold equity. Don't start building pots when you're either way behind, or the opponent isn't willing to build one. If you know a player is aggressive enough to semibluff J-A of suit unmade, then raise the flop. You better be damn sure though.
that money is already in the pot and action is on you. If you call, it's a free card for him, period.

Also, what hand are we way behind?? Because I can think of a lot of hands that we have annihilated that will put money into this pot, but I can't think of any hands that have bigger then a 2:1 edge on us (and flopped flushes aren't exactly common).

Quote:
By raising the flop, you're discouraging the villains weak range. You need this value to make the whole scenerio more profitable longterm.
... and by not raising the flop you miss out on value from villain's weak range, while also giving him a free card that will often kill your hand or kill your action. You also miss the primary chance ( on the flop) to charge a draw. (and namely, the bare ace of clubs or even king of clubs).

personally i think calling on this flop is attrocious poker but thats just me.
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bdawg56kg
Old 06-02-2006, 06:49 AM #12 (permalink)  
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I agree w/Lukie.

Rondavu, I'm not sure what you're getting at when you say raising the flop discourages villian's weak range. Barring a specific read, getting AI on this flop with top set is +EV, period. So the more money we can put in on this flop, the more +EV it is to us.
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Rondavu
Old 06-02-2006, 03:54 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Fair enough. If I flop top set, and I feel the villain has flopped a flush, I'm never raising that flop. I do understand where you're coming from though. To me it's not about the "chance" he flopped a flush, but whether you feel he has or not. If someone more on the passive side bets $2 on that flop I'm calling, because they're not semibluffing a high flush card.

I flop sets on flush boards all the time, and I tend to play them more on the passive side a lot. Maybe this is a leak.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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Lukie
Old 06-02-2006, 07:16 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
Fair enough. If I flop top set, and I feel the villain has flopped a flush, I'm never raising that flop. I do understand where you're coming from though. To me it's not about the "chance" he flopped a flush, but whether you feel he has or not. If someone more on the passive side bets $2 on that flop I'm calling, because they're not semibluffing a high flush card.
but they could easily be pricing themselves in for their own nut draw, with some fold equity to boot.

They could also be weak-value betting tp, 2pair, set, etc.

Quote:
I flop sets on flush boards all the time, and I tend to play them more on the passive side a lot. Maybe this is a leak.
heh, you must play a lot of poker if you flop sets on monotone flops all the time. But yeah, playing them passively (especially top set, facing a 1/3 pot bet) is a huge leak IMO.
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