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QQ vs 3bet OOP

  
 
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gametight
Old 11-20-2008, 08:33 PM     Post subject: QQ vs 3bet OOP #1 (permalink)  
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Villain is 16/8/3.5 with a 3bet of 4%

This is his first three bet against me this session and we usually dont tangle too much... only read is he probly cbets too much


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Hero (CO) ($103.90)
Button ($100)
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MP2 ($100)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, Q
5 folds, Hero raises to $4, Button raises to $12, 2 folds, Hero ???

What is your play from here??
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pokerfan
Old 11-20-2008, 08:43 PM #2 (permalink)  
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pop up to $32-35 and shove on any non Ace/King flop. If he has KK+, then i'd say " good hand, sir". QQ has good equity preflop vs QQ+, AK
i might see a fold preflop with AK but certainly not QQ.
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Deanglow
Old 11-20-2008, 10:00 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 raise less preflop, getting it in is ok, calling isnt terrible
 
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a500lbgorilla
Old 11-20-2008, 10:12 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanglow
raise less preflop, getting it in is ok, calling isnt terrible
explain your words

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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gametight
Old 11-20-2008, 10:32 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanglow
raise less preflop, getting it in is ok, calling isnt terrible
Are you saying to only make it 3 from CO?

Because this was his first 3bet against me this session, I decided to flat and get it in on any board with no A or K, especially since he cbets too much.

Does this seem like it gets max value from worse hands and bluffs??

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP3 ($101.50)
Hero (CO) ($103.90)
Button ($100)
SB ($100.50)
BB ($364.70)
UTG ($106.95)
UTG+1 ($106.85)
MP1 ($104.50)
MP2 ($100)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, Q
5 folds, Hero raises $4, Button raises $12, 2 folds, Hero calls $8

Flop: ($25.50) 2, 10, 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $15, Hero raises $91.90 (All-In), Button calls $73 (All-In)
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gametight
Old 11-20-2008, 10:32 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanglow
raise less preflop, getting it in is ok, calling isnt terrible
Are you saying to only make it 3 from CO?

Because this was his first 3bet against me this session, I decided to flat and get it in on any board with no A or K, especially since he cbets too much.

Does this seem like it gets max value from worse hands and bluffs??

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP3 ($101.50)
Hero (CO) ($103.90)
Button ($100)
SB ($100.50)
BB ($364.70)
UTG ($106.95)
UTG+1 ($106.85)
MP1 ($104.50)
MP2 ($100)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q, Q
5 folds, Hero raises $4, Button raises $12, 2 folds, Hero calls $8

Flop: ($25.50) 2, 10, 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $15, Hero raises $91.90 (All-In), Button calls $73 (All-In)
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a500lbgorilla
Old 11-21-2008, 12:01 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Deanglow is way wrong. Also villain's range doesn't have QQ crushed by any stretch.

Checking-shoving is read based.

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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pokerfan
Old 11-21-2008, 12:04 AM #8 (permalink)  
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if you think that JJ or TPTK might call your c/rai, then its fine to get in here.You were more than likely behind his range after he called your shove unless he spewed chips with worse stuff. In this situation, i 'd only call with KK+ or strong flush draw vs c/rai from FR multitabling regulars.
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Renton
Old 11-21-2008, 01:10 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Deanglow is way wrong.
what aspect of what he was saying would you describe as "way wrong"?
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Parasurama
Old 11-21-2008, 02:41 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Preflop I would 4-bet to $30 and fold to a 5-bet all-in. If the flop has no A or K, push flop. If his 3bet% was close to or lower than the probability of getting dealt AA or KK (12/1326 or 0.90%), I would call and hope to flop a set.

As played, flop play is fine but i'd be very surprised if you were ahead after he calls the c/r all-in.
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pokerfan
Old 11-21-2008, 03:00 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parasurama
Preflop I would 4-bet to $30 and fold to a 5-bet all-in.
Are you sure?
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Parasurama
Old 11-21-2008, 03:08 AM #12 (permalink)  
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Yes, we'd be getting almost 2-1 but at 100 NL I'm very confident that this is AA or KK. I understand why this would be a bad play for metagame though, so maybe calling and c/r all-in on flop was better.
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pokerfan
Old 11-21-2008, 03:45 AM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parasurama
Yes, we'd be getting almost 2-1 but at 100 NL I'm very confident that this is AA or KK. I understand why this would be a bad play for metagame though, so maybe calling and c/r all-in on flop was better.
100BB deep, Folding AK, QQ after 4 bet is pretty bad in these late positions.
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Parasurama
Old 11-21-2008, 04:53 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parasurama
Yes, we'd be getting almost 2-1 but at 100 NL I'm very confident that this is AA or KK. I understand why this would be a bad play for metagame though, so maybe calling and c/r all-in on flop was better.
100BB deep, Folding AK, QQ after 4 bet is pretty bad in these late positions.
Is that because we're ahead often enough with QQ when facing a 5-b AI? Or for another reason?
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Deanglow
Old 11-21-2008, 06:56 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parasurama
Yes, we'd be getting almost 2-1 but at 100 NL I'm very confident that this is AA or KK. I understand why this would be a bad play for metagame though, so maybe calling and c/r all-in on flop was better.
4betting a hand for value then folding is beyond awful. Just 4bet hands like KJo and A5o as bluffs and not QQ
 
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a500lbgorilla
Old 11-21-2008, 04:18 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Deanglow is way wrong.
what aspect of what he was saying would you describe as "way wrong"?
The raise less preflop, dont understand where that came from. Nothing wrong with 4x

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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Keilah
Old 11-21-2008, 06:08 PM #17 (permalink)  
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get it in pre imo

flat and crai is the best way to get owned by KK+ and make not too much fom AK or bluffs.

if you flat pre, then either donk/shove flops or c/c.
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nutsinho
Old 11-21-2008, 07:16 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Deanglow is way wrong.
what aspect of what he was saying would you describe as "way wrong"?
The raise less preflop, dont understand where that came from. Nothing wrong with 4x
are you playing poker these days? where is all of this strat coming from? im extremely confident that 3xing in LP is better than 4x, and the rest of Dean's post was also solid advice.
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Parasurama
Old 11-21-2008, 07:25 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanglow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parasurama
Yes, we'd be getting almost 2-1 but at 100 NL I'm very confident that this is AA or KK. I understand why this would be a bad play for metagame though, so maybe calling and c/r all-in on flop was better.
4betting a hand for value then folding is beyond awful. Just 4bet hands like KJo and A5o as bluffs and not QQ
Ok, I understand this, thanks. So if villain's 5-bet range is AA,KK we should be just calling the 3-bet preflop with QQ?
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BankItDrew
Old 11-21-2008, 07:26 PM #20 (permalink)  
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 I usually make it $14/$15 FWIW preflop

My 3bets are generally one tenth of villains potential profit in the hand. Sets up the SPR really well.


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a500lbgorilla
Old 11-21-2008, 07:58 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nutsinho
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Deanglow is way wrong.
what aspect of what he was saying would you describe as "way wrong"?
The raise less preflop, dont understand where that came from. Nothing wrong with 4x
are you playing poker these days? where is all of this strat coming from? im extremely confident that 3xing in LP is better than 4x, and the rest of Dean's post was also solid advice.
I've played like 3 or 4 hands. "way wrong" was way wrong, just a gut reaction miswording to his first comment about raising less than 4x which I thought was fine. I had nothing wrong with the rest of his post! Whole thing kinda got away from me!

edit it was kinda like one of those ego things were I said something then had to follow it up with a comment to make me not look like a fool, but in the end I just look like a fool.

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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nutsinho
Old 11-21-2008, 08:27 PM #22 (permalink)  
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 lol nice. i also dont think theres anything wrong with 4x in general and particularly if you don't open as wide as you should in late position. however, 3xing allows for less awkward preflop wars with regs, makes it less profitable for people to 3bet you, and keeps pots smaller when you have position + a weak range vs a caller from the blinds, and these are all good things.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 11-21-2008, 08:43 PM #23 (permalink)  
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I think maybe the best approach would be to have a variable preflop raise not based on your hand, but the situation. Being able to raise 3, 3.5, 3.667 or 4x and have it make sense with your game, would probably be incredibly useful

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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Deanglow
Old 11-21-2008, 10:04 PM #24 (permalink)  
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 I find it profitable to raise to 4x from the CO/BU whenever I am deep with the BU/blinds and they are fishy. Other than that I minraise or 3x
 
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Miffed22001
Old 11-21-2008, 10:14 PM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nutsinho
lol nice. i also dont think theres anything wrong with 4x in general and particularly if you don't open as wide as you should in late position. however, 3xing allows for less awkward preflop wars with regs, makes it less profitable for people to 3bet you, and keeps pots smaller when you have position + a weak range vs a caller from the blinds, and these are all good things.
This advice itself is worth 10 buy ins to most 100nl + 200nl regs if they implement it.
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bigspenda73
Old 11-21-2008, 10:19 PM #26 (permalink)  
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 Yea I dont know why people are going out of their way to build bigger pots w/ a weaker range
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gametight
Old 11-27-2008, 06:58 PM #27 (permalink)  
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My standard is 4x everywhere except on the button where I make it 3x (and sometimes CO depending on blinds). Where is a good spot to make the transition from 4x to 3x? CO, HJ, everywhere??
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