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JeffreyGB
Old 04-05-2005, 12:02 AM     Post subject: Push faster? #1 (permalink)  
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Reraise the flop? Raise harder on the turn? Question the straight draw (his raises made that seem unlikely)? Or was I dead on?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (9 handed) converter

UTG ($57.05)
UTG+1 ($60.8)
MP1 ($36.8)
MP2 ($41)
MP3 ($41.85)
CO ($21.75)
Button ($28.3)
SB ($51.3)
Hero ($17.85)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J, Q. SB posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls $0.50, UTG+1 calls $0.50, 5 folds, SB (poster) completes, Hero checks.

Flop: ($2) J, 3, 4 (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2, UTG raises to $4, UTG+1 folds, SB folds, Hero calls $2.

Turn: ($10) 6 (2 players)
Hero bets $4, UTG calls $4.

River: ($18) J (2 players)
Hero bets $2, UTG raises to $4, Hero calls $7.35 (All-In), UTG calls $5.35.

Final Pot: $36.70
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a500lbgorilla
Old 04-05-2005, 12:28 AM #2 (permalink)  
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What's the reasoning behind the stop and go on the flop?

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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JeffreyGB
Old 04-05-2005, 12:32 AM #3 (permalink)  
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As opposed to reraising?

I don't know. This is part of my long experience 4 tabling for the first time. I did a lot of things that didn't have the level of analysis I'd like to have. I may have thought I'd have him outkicked, trying to help get more $$ in the pot.
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JeffreyGB
Old 04-05-2005, 12:35 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Could be too that I wasn't sure on the flop, but figured I'd bet the turn again to conceal the flush draw if it hit. I know that after the 2nd J came, I didn't put him on a J, which made me figure I him beat (in and of itself questionable, since the only other thing getting to that point and calling is the straight that beats me or maybe a low two pair).
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DoGGz
Old 04-05-2005, 09:56 AM #5 (permalink)  
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I'd love to know what he had, I really think you are beat.

You flop tpgk. You bet and are raised. He doesn't have AA KK QQ most likely because of the preflop play. What could he have to reraise with?

Sure, he could be an idiot with a j and worse kicker, but mostlikely not. Any other hand has you beat almost for sure. I hate this hand, and even more so when you are 4+ tabling.
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JeffreyGB
Old 04-05-2005, 01:38 PM #6 (permalink)  
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So what do you put him on? AJ? KJ? The straight (reraising on the flop with only a draw)? Two pair (which I beat)? A flopped set that boated?
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storm75m
Old 04-05-2005, 01:45 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 looks like a lower set or straight to me... but I probably would've played it the same and just took the loss if it was a straight.
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JeffreyGB
Old 04-05-2005, 03:18 PM #8 (permalink)  
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He turned over JTo. Didn't even stand out in my mind at the time (except that I felt a bit relieved), but looking back I think I misplayed the hand.
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SmackinYaUp
Old 04-05-2005, 03:45 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
What's the reasoning behind the stop and go on the flop?

-'rilla
What would you recommend as the correct play here? Usually this is what I find myself doing in these situations and I end up all kunfoozed.
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mcpeepants
Old 04-05-2005, 05:49 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Jack lower kicker is one of the only hands you can beat here. Nobody plays J8 or lower and so JT and J9 could really be the only hands you beat here. I don't think he would call when the second jack hit the board with a lower pair. JT is really the best hand you can hope for, but I think more often they will have AJ or JK.

At what specific point did you play this wrong? The guy minraises him back on the flop to make sure he has the goods. Would reraising there be correct? That seems overly aggressive. Folding to any sign of aggression seems wrong. I would have check/folded the turn had the flush draw not come out. Let this guy be overly aggressive with TP Weak Kicker. If he plays like that all the time he's going to lose money with hands like that.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 04-05-2005, 06:03 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
What's the reasoning behind the stop and go on the flop?

-'rilla
What would you recommend as the correct play here? Usually this is what I find myself doing in these situations and I end up all kunfoozed.
The stop and go here is fine. I just wanted to know why he felt it was better than raising. Just wanted to get his thinking juices flowing.

The reason why the stop and go is better here: You're unsure of your hand strength. If you reraise on the flop and just get called, you have two more streets and a bigger pot to deal with. A turn raise indicates that you're beat but a turn call could mean anything. Sometimes the turn card is an ace or K that you could probably sell as you own AND you do have a chance of improving at the cost of giving him a chance to improve.

-'rilla

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You mean the revolver, sir?
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JeffreyGB
Old 04-05-2005, 06:07 PM #12 (permalink)  
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I think that of the hands that would make the plays he made, very few do I beat. His play would likely have been the same with a set on the flop, making my river push suicide. AJ/KJ are also likely candidates for his play.

I think my biggest mistake was the river. I'd say I should have called rather than pushed. Then again, he barely reraised me, not indicating much strength really...but when I think about it, if I'm on my A game, I play exactly like he did with TT-22 if I hit a set (wherein 33 and 44 give him the set), and with AJ/KJ though I probably reraise on the flush draw.

I'm not sure though. That's why I'm asking for opinions
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a500lbgorilla
Old 04-05-2005, 06:10 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Well, you're obviously not folding and not getting him to fold.

If you're not sure where you stand, you should just call.

Also, you should probably notice people pushing you around more just becuase you have a small stack all the time. I often just put small stacks AI after I raise preflop just becuase I can. *cackles*

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You mean the revolver, sir?
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JeffreyGB
Old 04-05-2005, 06:22 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Also, you should probably notice people pushing you around more just becuase you have a small stack all the time. I often just put small stacks AI after I raise preflop just becuase I can. *cackles*

-'rilla
If I hold the goods though, doesn't that stand to make me money? I'm more likely to have a push called playing as a small stack in NL$100 than as a big stack in NL$25, aren't I?
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a500lbgorilla
Old 04-05-2005, 06:27 PM #15 (permalink)  
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If you hold the goods.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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Element187
Old 04-05-2005, 08:02 PM #16 (permalink)  
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how often do you have the goods opposed to when a larger stack raises you all in.. the larger stack will make more money from the money your forced to fold, then you do calling the all in when you have the goods.


say you had your opponent covered in this situation, IE: larger stack, you could have bullied him off this hand on the flop or turn... although you had a better result, your way.
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JeffreyGB
Old 04-05-2005, 09:04 PM #17 (permalink)  
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At some point, I'll make a detailed strat post discussing my reasons for doing this. If someone with a $50 stack is throwing $15 bets all over without the cards, I'm not the only one who's going to pick up on it and punish them for it. Yes, I may potentially fold a better hand when someone's bluffing, but can you honestly say that you'll call a bet for 1/3 your stack in a ring game without what you think is a winning hand?

Ultimately, what you're arguing is that aggression makes more than passive play. I agree completely. Playing a small stack does not necessarily equate to passive play. Hell, Rippy plays a small stack too, and I just finished reading a post wherein you wanted to mimic his strats (which, btw, I think is more effective starting as a small stack, because you can cheaply show that you're playing crap if you are called and lose).
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