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profiling regs online >5k hands - thoughts?

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daven

08-21-2008, 10:23 AM Post subject: profiling regs online >5k hands - thoughts?

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up

Posts: 5,814

ok, I'm going to stay on the same site at the same limit for a while.
There are a bunch of multi-tabling regs that I have a few hands on.

I've searched this forum, and others, and come up with not much on profiling regs. I want to go beyond some HUD stats and very basic notes taken during play. I figure that getting inside their game is ++EV, as I will be playing them a lot.

I've gone through my database reasonably thoroughly against a couple of these players. Now I'm trying to summarise these notes into a few lines for gameplay reference.

The first player I chose was easy, a classic nit - but I decided to try and figure out what info was interesting with this guy.

Player = 'PJ'
as at 18/8/2008
hands: 5819
BB/100: 3.58ptBB/100

Multi-tabler, how many tables? - I think 8-10, to confirm!

VPIP:13.22
PFR: 5.45
3-bet pre: 1.73
Att to steal:19.41
Fold BB to steal:88
Fold SB to steal:88
call pfr - 9%
call pf 3-bet - 12%

WTSD - 20.18%
W$WSD - 52%

position -
9-4 UTG
11-5 HJ
14-9 CO
17-8 button

pre-flop:
open-limp
ATsx2 from EP
QJx1, QT, Q9 all from sb
pairs

pfr range is narrow, only slight widening in button steal and sb steal situations. Doesn't play to isolate.
sb completes wide range (don't we all!)

play vs steal attempts:
38 known hands - defends by calling rather than betting except with monsters or vs shortstacks.
doesn't auto-steal from SB when folded to

3/4 betting pre-flop
known hands:
AA x4
KK x1
QQ x1
AKo x2
AQo x1
AJs x1

1xAA - 3-bet pot, 5-bet pot
1xAA - raised to $5 pre, deep in EP, 4-bet pot,
1xAA - 3-bet > pot from sb, 5-bet pushed
1xAA - UTG - limp re-raised pot

1xKK - bet-4-bet for 50bb
1xQQ - 3-bet pot from button. Bet 2/3 pot on ace high flop unimproved. Bet brick turn when opp fully committed
1xAJs - button bet over steal from chronic stealer. Bet Ace high flop, bb stayed in. Bet brick turn to get all in vs 60bb blind.
1xAQ iso-ed 25bb, 4-bet the shortstack allin
1xAK - 3-bet from blind vs 60bb steal, got allin on flop
1xAK - 3-bet from blind vs 20bb utg raise

big pairs
JJ
1) bet-pre, 2-way to flop. Bet close to pot when checked to by sb on 5h6hTs flop. Checked behind Ace turn completing flush draw, checked behind 5s river.
2) checked vs limper and sb from bb. Called sb min bet on 2d5d3c flop. Called $4 into $5 bet on Ks turn. Called $4 into $13 on 8s river.

QQ
1) bet pre, two way to flop. Bet close to pot on 5h9c7s flop, called min re-raise. Checked turn and river
2) bet pre, two way to flop vs bb. 4c8d7s flop bet close to pot. checked Td turn behind, close to min re-raised 1/4 pot river 2s bet
3) bet pot over min-raise and callers. Bet ace high flop and got all-in vs 60bb
4) bet pot over limpers, 2/3 pot JTT flop 3-way, bet half-pot on 4 turn, called c-r push 180bb deep
5) flat called from button. Blind bet $2 on 5h2hTc flop, pfr called, PJ raised half-pot. blind called. checked to on Ts turn and bet < half pot, half pot bet called Th river.
6) flat called from blind vs MP raiser. Checked 834 flop, bet 2/3 pot on 6, checked river 2 that completed backdoor flush.
7) opened $5 from ep, 2 callers. Bet just > 1/2 pot on K43 (two suits) flop, checked 2h turn, checked 9c river

KK
1) bet-call. 234 two tone flop, check raised all-in vs 100bb
2) bet after limpers from sb. Bet $7 (into $10), called min-raise on QcTs9d flop. Check-called 2/3 pot on 7d turn. Check called 2/3 pot ($50 bet) on 4d river.
3) flat-called bet+1xcoldcaller from button. Raised c-bet and caller < half pot, called min 4-bet from cold caller. Checked blank turn and river behind.
4) pfr from EP, one caller. Bet $6 into $8 on J48 2-suit flop, checked 3 turn, bet just over half-pot on t river
5) 4-bet shortstacker

AA
1) 3-bet, 5-bet
2) flat called pre, flat called c-bet on 234 rainbow, c-r all in on king turn
3) raised after limper. Checked behind on 842 flop (vs my bad play with set!), called pot bet on J turn, called half pot on 7 river.
4) limp-called UTG, 3-way flop 23J - blind bet, pfr re-raised, PJ called bet-3-bet - then called 4-bet min. Check called 1/3 psb on 6 turn, checked river blank.
5) pfr, 4-bet
6) pfr, checked flopped set. bet near pot on turn and river
7) 3-bet 5-bet
8) limp-re-raise then called push

22-TT 0%pfr!!!

flop play
folds to flop bets a bunch - fit or fold when limping?
calls flop 3-bets 2/3 or time - never seen a flop 4-bet

sets
1) aces after pfr on Ah7h6s flop checked from ep, opp checked behind. Bet just under pot on 3s turn, bet just under pot on 9d river.
2) limp-called TT 2-way to flop. Flat called 1/2 pot bet on 8hThQc flop (200 deep). Bet close to flop when checked to on 2h turn. Bet half pot on 4c river when checked to.
3)limped 99 behind from button. 4-way to flop. Flop 7sKc9s. Limper bet pot, PJ re-raised pot (vs 50bb shortstack). Ad turn, checked to, bet half pot, called push.
4) open limped 99, 3-way to flop. Flop 8h4d9s check-raised pot.5d turn, bet 2/3 pot. 3s river, bet 2/3 pot.
5) flat called 88 from ep, 3-way to flop. 8sKcJc flop re-raised pot on a pot lead from original raiser, called flop pot re-re-raise push.
6) EP limp-called bb raise, 4-way to flop. 7h8cTc flop, bb bet pot, PJ re-raised pot - called re-re-raise push from bb after button called all-in.
7) completed 55 from sb, 3-way to flop. Check-called 3h4h5c flop, checked Ad turn, check called psb on 7s river.

overpairs
1) AA limp-called UTG, 3-way flop 23J - blind bet, pfr re-raised, PJ called bet-3-bet - then called 4-bet min. Check called 1/3 psb on 6 turn, checked river blank.
2) AA raised after limper. Checked behind on 842 flop (vs my bad play with set!), called pot bet on J turn, called half pot on 7 river.
3) AA flat called pre, flat called c-bet on 234 rainbow, c-r all in on king turn
4) KK pfr from EP, one caller. Bet $6 into $8 on J48 2-suit flop, checked 3 turn, bet just over half-pot on t river
5) KK bet after limpers from sb. Bet $7 (into $10), called min-raise on QcTs9d flop. Check-called 2/3 pot on 7d turn. Check called 2/3 pot ($50 bet) on 4d river.
6) KK bet-call. 234 two tone flop, check raised all-in vs 100bb
7) QQ flat called from blind vs MP raiser. Checked 834 flop, bet 2/3 pot on 6, checked river 2 that completed backdoor flush.
8) QQ bet pre, two way to flop vs bb. 4c8d7s flop bet close to pot. checked Td turn behind, close to min re-raised 1/4 pot river 2s bet
9) QQ bet pre, two way to flop. Bet close to pot on 5h9c7s flop, called min re-raise. Checked turn and river
10) JJ checked vs limper and sb from bb. Called sb min bet on 2d5d3c flop. Called $4 into $5 bet on Ks turn. Called $4 into $13 on 8s river.
checked vs limper and sb from bb. Called sb min bet on 2d5d3c flop. Called $4 into $5 bet on Ks turn. Called $4 into $13 on 8s river.
11) TT, checked from BB - 3-way to flop. 2c3d9c flop, bet 2/3 pot, called min-re-raise. checked 9s turn and 8s river
12) TT open limped - 3 way (sb, bb, pj) to flop. Called psb on 7h6h9d flop. Bet 2/3 pot when checked to on Qs turn. Checked 5d river behind.
13) TT from sb, called steal, called bb re-raise 160bb deep. Check-called half pot bet on 5c9h7h flop. Checked Ad turn, 4h river.
14) 99 limp-called. Flop 775 2-way, checked. 2h turn bet $9 into $10.

draws.

1) AKs, called with overcards and flush draw after flatting pre. re-raised allin vs 40bb weak turn bet with TPTK and nut flush draw - unpaired board.
2) ATs limped, bet 3d3c5d flop $2 vs bb. Checked Kh behind. Called half pot bet on Th river.
3) bb with KsQd limped pot vs sb. Called $1 into 3s4s8s flop, called $2 on 5s turn (completed second nuts), called $7 on 5h river.
4) limp-called Kd2d from sb vs bb min-raise. 4-way to flop. Checked 4d4h8d flop. Called $5 into $8 from bb. Called $7 into $18 on Tc river.
5) limped QJo behind from lp after one limper. 2TQ club flop, giving top pair and fd to third nuts - re-raised pot on 2/3 pot lead from bb. Min re-raised 2/3 pot

lead on 5s turn. Called $1 bet on 6d river.
6) checked J6d after button limp and sb complete. 9dTsQd flop, called sb pot bet. Checked Qc turn behind. Called pot bet on Kd river.
7) 7s2s checked vs utg limp. As3s2h flop, called pot bet. Checked Td turn and 6c river
8) limped 4c4h from button. 4 way to 3c5c6c flop, sb bet half pot, limper called, PJ called. Checked 8c turn behind. Checked 9c river behind.
9) open limped 4s4h. 5s8sTs flop, bet $2 after bb checked. Checked 7c turn behind, checked 9d river behind.
10) limp-called 3c3d. Check-called Kc9c2c flop vs half pot bet. Bet just over 1/3 pot on Kd turn. Check-called 1/3 pot on 6d river.

Turn play
Bet turn - 36.75%
3-bet turn - 0%
Turn AFq - 52.4% on Turn AF of 4.00
Fold to turn bet 61%
call t-bet 25%
WSDWRT - 62.5%

Turn hands
betting:
1) common pattern - 8x... limped pot. checked flop with close to nothing, checked around. Bet turn around pot. Checked river.
2) psb after checked flop with aa set
3) pfr with AKs 3-way on K88 flop. C-bet near pot, turn K bet under half pot, river bet just under 2/3 pot for value, left 100bb behind after bet!
4) flat call AdKc from button. 3way to flop, flat called pf raiser half pot c-bet on KsTd3d.Bet 2/3 pot when checked to on 4c turn, flat called 2/3 pot bet on 8d river.
5) 3-bet AhJh from button vs pfr from chronic stealer in cutoff. 3-way to Ac4s8s flop, c-bet 1/2 pot, bb 50bb fish called. Bet 2/3 ($40) pot (effective all-in) on 2h turn.
6) opened AdJh from mp. 2-way to ThJsKs flop, c-bet near pot. Bet turn 2/3 pot ($13) on 4d turn. Bet 2/5 ($19) pot on 3c river.
7) limped Ac6c from sb, 5way to flop, AsTh2h, checked around. Bet 1/2 pot on 8h turn, 1/2 pot ($5) on Td river.
8) As3s button steal. 2-way to AdKdJh flop, checked behind. Bet close to pot ($5) on 7d turn, checked Ts river behind
9) Completed KdQd from sb after co limp. 3-way to AcKh6s flop, checked around. Bet pot ($3) on 4c turn, check called $7 from bb on 2s river.
10) limped pot completed sb with Kc4h, bet half pot on 9s2h4d flop. bet < 1/2 pot on 2d turn ($2.50), bet $3, called $6 more (final pot $30) on 6h river.
11) QQ bet pot over min-raise and callers. Bet ace high flop and got all-in vs 60bb
12) QQ bet pot over limpers, 2/3 pot JTT flop 3-way, bet half-pot on 4 turn, called c-r push 180bb deep
13) QQ flat called from button. Blind bet $2 on 5h2hTc flop, pfr called, PJ raised half-pot. blind called. checked to on Ts turn and bet < half pot, half pot bet called Th river.
14) QQ flat called from blind vs MP raiser. Checked 834 flop, bet 2/3 pot on 6, checked river 2 that completed backdoor flush.
15) Folded around to Qd9d in sb, completed. Bet $2 on TdKs5c flop, Bet $4 (into $6) on 2d turn, checked Kd river (gave decent flush...).
16) checked Qh2h from bb, checked around 5-way on AdQs7h flop, bet $3 into $5 on 5h turn, checked 3c river.
17) Limped JsTc from CO. Checked around on 4c4dKh flop, checked to PJ on Th turn, bet $3 into $5, checked 8d river.
18) TT open limped - 3 way (sb, bb, pj) to flop. Called psb on 7h6h9d flop. Bet 2/3 pot when checked to on Qs turn. Checked 5d river behind.
19) limp-called TT 2-way to flop. Flat called 1/2 pot bet on 8hThQc flop (200 deep). Bet close to flop when checked to on 2h turn. Bet half pot on 4c river when checked to.
20) Button steal with Ts9c, c-bet $8 into $10 on Tc5c4h flop. Bet $19 into $27 on 9d turn. Bet $45 into $65 on 7s river.
21) limped 99 behind from button. 4-way to flop. Flop 7sKc9s. Limper bet pot, PJ re-raised pot (vs 50bb shortstack). Ad turn, checked to, bet half pot, called push
22) 99 limp-called. Flop 775 2-way, checked. 2h turn bet $9 into $10. showed hand.
23) open limped 99, 3-way to flop. Flop 8h4d9s check-raised pot.5d turn, bet $18 = 2/3 pot. 3s river, bet $44=2/3 pot.
24) checked 5s6h from bb, 4-way to flop. sb bet $1, pj raised to $4.50, one caller, sb fold. Bet $8 into $15 on Kc turn, checked Qs river.
25) checked 6c5s from bb. 3-way to flop. checked Ah2c7s flop, checked through. Bet $2 into $3 on 6s turn, check-called $4 on 7c river.
26) open limped 5h5d, four way to flop, bet $3 into $4 on Ks3c2h, bb called. Bet $6 into $10 on 9c turn, checked 4d river behind.

raising:
1) limped BvsB pot. Called $1 into $2 on top pair 6 kicker flop. SB $1 again, raised to $4. Checked brick river behind (still tp crap kicker)
2) AKs, called with overcards and flush draw after flatting pre. re-raised allin vs 40bb weak turn bet with TPTK and nut flush draw - unpaired board.
3) AA flat called pre, flat called c-bet on 234 rainbow, c-r all in on king turn
4) limped AcJs from mp. 4way to Ad6hKs flop, sb bet $2, one caller, PJ raised to $7. 3-way to turn, sb bet $15 into $25, one caller, PJ min-raised to $30, called push to $105 from mp caller.
5) open limped AhTh UTG, two-way to flop, bet $1 on TdJh6s flop, bb bet $2 on Ad turn, PJ raised to $8. Checked Ks (Q to a straight) behind.
6) Limped QhJh from button. 4-way to Jd8h6s flop, called $2. Min-raised after sb bet $5 into $9. Checked 9s river behind.
7) limped QJo behind from lp after one limper. 2TQ club flop, giving top pair and fd to third nuts - re-raised pot on 2/3 pot lead from bb. Min re-raised 2/3 pot lead on 5s turn. Called $1 bet on 6d river.
8) completed 8d9s 7way to flop! check-called $5 into $7 on Tc7h4d flop. Check-raised Jc turn (nut straight) to effective all in vs 40bb.

checking/calling
slowplays monsters sometimes when reasonably safe, check-calls in call down mode with overpairs etc.

River play
bet river 15%, raise river 7%, won showdown 100% when showing river aggression...
called river bet 33%

don't raise with the straight flush bro, nobody ever gonna call that shit
allin, reload, repeat

please read: http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/

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bode

08-21-2008, 10:43 AM

#2 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: May 2006

Location: slow motion

Posts: 4,270

bode is an unknown quantity at this point

while this is absolutely amazing, i think that its in way too much detail to be practical and useful. you need to filter down this info into something you can quickly look through/remember in the 30 seconds you have to make a decision in a critical hand with him.

Quote:

eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.

badgers

08-21-2008, 11:07 AM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2007

Location: Spewing

Posts: 3,372

Wow, this is a long post.

Let's just look at how he sucks and try to exploit it.

- He likes to limp a lot from EP without balancing it with limp/raising (which he did once, or is that the only time it went to showdown?)

Pretty obvious adjustment to make, we can isolate him a lot from late position and expect him to fold to a lot of our flop bets cos he's setmining.

- He doesn't raise many hands

Setmine wheee.

- Doesn't go to showdown a lot.

You can also play Axs hands and stuff as if setming and try and get him to fold postflop a lot because he's going to be used to getting set-mined as he's so nitty. Boards like 257 one suit are great for pissing about vs. nits like this, although I didn't really get a feel for how light he stacks off because in your analysis you didn't put whether the opponent was a nit or a lunatic.

- won showdown 100% when showing river aggression...

LOL

There are many other adjustments you can make. It's good to try and work out how someone is playing and try and fully understand them.

I used to go through PT and do stuff like this quite regularly. Now I prefer to do this ingame and I think there are a lot of advantages to that. When I am playing I have a notepad document open with a lot of the more common notes that I use frequently so I can just copy/paste into Stars and get back to playing asap

However, the main advantage of doing this ingame is you can more easily see what is relevant and what is not, and you also get a better feel for what your opponent was thinking - you can see the stats of the other players at the table for instance. The problem here is that a lot of what you have collected is irrelevant in trying to exploit him. Think about the most exploitable mistakes, such as the hilairous won when showed river aggression. Other things to look for

- Do they value bet light?
- limp/folding preflop
- Folding to a lot of cbets
- Cbetting a lot then giving up on the turn
- Unbalanced ranges preflop such as the limping range UTG
- Calling a lot of 3bets preflop (we don't want to be 3betting this opp wide unless it's COvsBU or something so it's largely irrelevant here but it is often relevant).
- Folding to a lot of 3bets
- Do they 4bet pre ever or just call w/ AA to trap
- How they play draws
- Multi-street bluff ever (this may seem unlikely but I have a note on a player with similar stats who always double barrels scare cards)
- Do they bet missed draws?
- WHAT IS OUR IMAGE/HISTORY
- How they play bvb. A lot of nits like this will l/f religiously from the small blind because apparently they hate money.
- What hands they call a steal with. Are they still playing fit/fold despite our wide range in this situation?

And there's loads more. All of these are really important and quick notes to make that can really really help. It's not just a case of making very basic notes, you can really get inside their heads and assign a much more accurate range postflop.

3k post - Return of the blog!

daven

08-21-2008, 11:07 AM

#4 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up

Posts: 5,814

Quote:

Originally Posted by bode

i think that its in way too much detail to be practical and useful. you need to filter down this info into something you can quickly look through/remember in the 30 seconds you have to make a decision in a critical hand with him.

I agree completely - what do you think of summarising with something like the below? anything I should add or take away? I'm running an HUD with something like VPIP/PFR/3-bet/c-bet/AFq/hands

Nit
pf 3-bet = strength (AA, mix of call/3-bet KK/AK - calls QQ)
limp-calls pairs 22-TT
folds a lot of flops
Fit or fold on flop with low-mid pairs.
Slows down on later streets against aggressive resistance w.o monster
Turn aggression = strength
River aggression = nuts
doesn't bluff much
overplays AA/KK unimproved.
Best to bet for value - 2/3 -4/5 pot!!!!

daven

08-21-2008, 11:19 AM

#5 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up

Posts: 5,814

Quote:

Originally Posted by badgers

Wow, this is a long post.

Let's just look at how he sucks and try to exploit it.

good point, the other thing I'm going to try and do (this guy may be a bad example) is to look at how villains don't suck - and how not to be exploited by that. Although I'll also be looking at how to exploit that. So I guess your point stands even then

nice...

allabout

08-21-2008, 12:06 PM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2006

Location: VA USA

Posts: 277

Just curious, do you have HEM? It does most of this for you in the active players detail window. You can also look up individual players and get all the details you want (including a summary of how they play). If you did this all by hand thats a ton of work and I commend you for putting in the study time.

"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Elmer Letterman

daven

08-21-2008, 12:13 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up

Posts: 5,814

Quote:

Originally Posted by allabout

hmmm, PT3 and loads of grunt work. I figure I'd learn about poker as well as the player by doing this - but this sounds like yet another reason to get HEM...

Chopper

08-21-2008, 02:47 PM

#8 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

daven,

my guess is that you avoid this guy most times. he doesnt really do much when he's in a pot w/o a big hand. however, he gets trappy, too. but, when not in a position of absolute strength, he is a royal puss.

if i had position on this guy, i would look to play a lot of "high implied odds hands" against him. things that look to be out of MY range because they are certainly out of his, and therefore, somewhat invisible to a 8+ tabling nit.

you absolutely have a range nailed on him. and, havent seen him stray from it outside the blinds. play hands that will stack that range, but never take them very far. balance out your bigger hands with that smaller, implied-odds stuff on occasion. but, generally, just avoid him and focus on other fish at the tables because you wont get much, and you wont get it often.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

d0zer

08-21-2008, 02:53 PM

#9 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 2,527

While I admire your dedication to studying, I think this is somewhat overkill. ...at least for me.

I find there's so many regs, that profiling them in detail is probably something I wouldn't bother with until I hit high stakes. I think general reads on multi-tabling regs is more than enough. I try to take notes on the regs, but it's more simple notes along the lines of 'straightforward postflop', or 'isn't afraid to spew', or something like that.

Since the regs are generally multi-tabling tagg-bots, I find that I don't get into tons of difficult situations with them. I look at calls PFR% to see if they're only calling with PPs, I see how often they fold to c-bets, how often they make c-bets, and that usually gives me enough information to play them preflop/on the flop. Rarely do I ever go to the turn with them, especially if they're straightforward because their hand strength becomes fairly obvious.

Just my 2c.

frosst

08-28-2008, 02:26 PM

#10 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Nov 2007

Location: count-n mah monies stewie-style

Posts: 220

Quote:

Originally Posted by daven

Quote:

Originally Posted by bode

isn't that a nit? you covered that when you wrote nit on the first line. for me, i use notes to make harder decisions easier. for example, i'll take note of hands opp has stacked off with, and how he bet them. 80-90% of the time, regs play their hands the same way. so, if he's a nit and he's check min-raising my flop c-bet, i'll look at the notes to see what hands he did that with.

Miffed22001

09-03-2008, 07:43 PM

#11 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jun 2005

Location: Marry Me Cheryl!!!

Posts: 8,181

we'd need to know more about what hes doing in each position.
post PT stats for the player and compare it to what you are doing

daven

09-04-2008, 07:09 AM

#12 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Aug 2007

Location: soaking up ethanol, moving on up

Posts: 5,814

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

we'd need to know more about what hes doing in each position.
post PT stats for the player and compare it to what you are doing

Hey, that's smart! individual hands plus overall stats to give an indication of range by position and any polarisation etc... Thanks.

me the first couple of days of september, position is probably representative of how i play now. I'll have to get your FT sn so that I know to change my play if you appear at my tables when I move back up!

and villain:

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profiling regs online >5k hands - thoughts?

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