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Probably a very bad call on the river with a straight.

  
 
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juschuma
Old 09-14-2005, 06:50 AM     Post subject: Probably a very bad call on the river with a straight. #1 (permalink)  

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juschuma
I don't think I played this poorly up until the the river. I feel like I should have folded after my river raise was re-raised, but at that point, I was getting roughly 3.5 to 1 on my final call. Any advice would be great.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) converter

Hero ($81.55)
CO ($62.75)
Button ($149.40)
SB ($11.45)
BB ($8)
UTG ($60.10)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Tc, Jd.
UTG calls $0.50, Hero calls $0.50, CO raises to $3, 1 fold, SB calls $2.75, 1 fold, UTG calls $2.50, Hero calls $2.50.

Flop: ($12.50) 7c, 7s, Ks (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: ($12.50) 9d (4 players)
SB bets $2, UTG calls $2, Hero calls $2, CO calls $2.

River: ($20.50) Qd (4 players)
SB bets $6.45 (All-In), UTG calls $6.45, Hero raises to $20, CO raises to $37.75, UTG calls $48.65 (All-In), Hero calls $37.75.

Final Pot: $177.55

Results below:
UTG has Kc Qs (two pair, kings and queens).
Hero has Tc Jd (straight, king high).
CO has Qc Qh (full house, queens full of sevens).
SB has 7h Ac (three of a kind, sevens).
Outcome: CO wins $177.55.
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Rondavu
Old 09-14-2005, 12:48 PM #2 (permalink)  
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What an action hand!

Don't chase gutshots for any amount on a paired board. Your outs are counterfeited, and pot odds diminished. I wouldn't even chase a flush or OESD on a paired board unless it's a steep discount. Ask yourself what a paired board does to your implied odds in these cases? It cripples them because the last thing you want is to go deep into your stack when you make your hand. Even if you have the best hand, the straight or flush possibility coupled with the paired board will make any potential action that you have beat dry up like a grandmother.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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IowaSkinsFan
Old 09-14-2005, 12:57 PM #3 (permalink)  
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IowaSkinsFan will become famous soon enoughIowaSkinsFan will become famous soon enough
 He had a double gut and idk if you can fold a straight there.
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Rondavu
Old 09-14-2005, 01:34 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan
He had a double gut and idk if you can fold a straight there.
Double gut, OESD, no difference. It's still not a hand to go deep with on a paired board.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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juschuma
Old 09-14-2005, 03:52 PM #5 (permalink)  

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juschuma
There are three questions that I'm trying to understand:

1) Are you saying I shouldn't have even called the $2 turn bet with a double gut draw?

2) Once I did make that call and hit my straight, was it OK to make the $20 raise on the river?

3) Once I did make the $20 raise and was re-raised, was it OK to make the final call when I was getting about 3.5 to 1 on my money?
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DimitriT
Old 09-14-2005, 04:25 PM #6 (permalink)  
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I like Ron's point on how a paired board ruins your implied odds. Something to keep in mind when deciding if you want to pay for the draw.
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Rondavu
Old 09-14-2005, 05:17 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Rondavu
Quote:
Originally Posted by juschuma
There are three questions that I'm trying to understand:

1) Are you saying I shouldn't have even called the $2 turn bet with a double gut draw?

2) Once I did make that call and hit my straight, was it OK to make the $20 raise on the river?

3) Once I did make the $20 raise and was re-raised, was it OK to make the final call when I was getting about 3.5 to 1 on my money?
1) $2 on the turn was NOT a steep price to pay with a $12 pot in front of you and a double gut draw. Not to mention such a weak bet makes you think you possibly have two overs (6 more outs). So yes you should have called $2 with a weary thought in your mind that if you make your hand it still might be beat.

2) Absolutely not ok to make a $20 raise here. Make it a min re-raise ($12-$13) or just call with action behind you on a dangerous board for your hand. You don't want to committ yourself. Some hands pay you off large, and some aren't meant to. This was the latter. Remember the implied odds are reduced on paired boards. You have to stay modest to beware of that set to house, especially with so many in. It takes a lot of discipline, but with so many people in hand and two feeling strong before you, it's a cinch to just call here and pray your hand holds up.

3) You shouldn't have made such a hefty raise in the first place, but once you did, of course you have to cry and call with such odds on your money having a made hand.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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doubledown
Old 09-14-2005, 05:24 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Wow, what an odd hand...Tons of action. Wow, where do you start with this one. I agree with everyone else, Raise 3x-bet on a gutshot? You have some marbles for that bet...ecspcecially being I smelled a boat on the the flop with the 2x 7's. This was just really poorly played on your part. I'm assuming you're either rich and don't care about your money or you were on tilt?
Listen, here's the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in your first half hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker.
 
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Rondavu
Old 09-14-2005, 05:48 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Rondavu
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubledown
Wow, what an odd hand...Tons of action. Wow, where do you start with this one. I agree with everyone else, Raise 3x-bet on a gutshot? You have some marbles for that bet...ecspcecially being I smelled a boat on the the flop with the 2x 7's. This was just really poorly played on your part. I'm assuming you're either rich and don't care about your money or you were on tilt?
Lol. Pretty harsh dude. Actually, I thought it was a pretty difficult hand for someone who hasn't encountered the situation often enough. The only mistake I saw was not feeling out the river action and getting committed, then smoked like a turkish sausage. Besides that I thought he took the unseasoned slam hammer up chocolate cave on 5th street. Perhaps I might add that he got porked like a Motley Crue groupie after a Pam and Tommy break up. Everything else seemed fine.
It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
 
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juschuma
Old 09-14-2005, 05:57 PM #10 (permalink)  

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juschuma
Appreciate the insight. Looking back on it, I can see why the $20 raise was bad. With a lower raise, I might get some value out of this hand when others call with worse hands (assuming no one caught their boat). However, with this large raise, the only ones to call will likely be the full-house and I'm not going to get anyone to fold a better hand than my straight.

Either way, it was an interesting hand to play and I'm trying to learn from my mistakes on this one.
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dsaxton
Old 09-14-2005, 10:54 PM #11 (permalink)  
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dsaxton
Yeah, assuming you're playing intelligent opponents, raising huge on the river with a straight on a paired board is generally sort of ridiculous.

Also, I think you should be concerned that might be drawing completely dead against K-K. The cut off player makes a pretty big raise preflop, which almost always indicates a high pair or A-K, and then checks a K, 7, 7 flop? He either has K-K or Q-Q, so on the river, I would consider mucking this straight as soon as it got around to me.
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