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Probably my toughest river decision ever. Plz Help

  
 
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Genitruc
Old 06-21-2006, 05:11 PM     Post subject: Probably my toughest river decision ever. Plz Help #1 (permalink)  
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 I wish b 2 b didn't COMPLETELY BLOW for hh.

Villain just sat down at table. Absolutely no read on him.

Game # 359003173 - Texas Hold'em No Limit EUR 0.50/1 - Table "Logrono"

Players(max 6):
Ravageur3 (EUR 140.10 in seat 1)
Ford_F (EUR 57.50 in seat 2)
Signor_H (EUR 61.30 in seat 3)
nils2 (EUR 180.75 in seat 4)
HERO (EUR 245.70 in seat 5)
ubersanta (EUR 108.90 in seat 6)

Dealer: Signor_H
Small Blind: VILLAIN (0.50)
Big Blind: HERO (1.00)

HERO was dealt: Ad-3h

ubersanta Call (1.00)
Ravageur3 Fold
Ford_F Fold
Signor_H Fold
VILLAIN Call (0.50)
HERO Check

Flop 5d - 2d - 4h

nils2 Bet (2.75)
HERO Call (2.75)
ubersanta Raise (15.00)
VILLAIN Call (12.25)
HERO Raise (66.00)
ubersanta Fold
VILLAIN Call (53.75)

Turn 5d - 2d - 4h - 5c

VILLAIN Check
HERO Check

River 5d - 2d - 4h - 5c - 9h

nils2 All-In (111.00)
Henitruk6 WONDERS IF HE CAN FOLD HIS STRAIGHT....
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freechus9
Old 06-21-2006, 05:14 PM #2 (permalink)  
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This almost looks like a missed flush draw to me. Call call check check push on river when diamond doesn't hit. I would have called and cried when he f lips over the boat.
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givememyleg
Old 06-21-2006, 05:33 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freechus9
This almost looks like a missed flush draw to me. Call call check check push on river when diamond doesn't hit. I would have called and cried when he f lips over the boat.
You would see a boat here 10-1 over a missed fd.

I vote for a crying fold over a crying call.

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givememyleg
Old 06-21-2006, 05:33 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 PS - Unless villian is a donk (reads?) he isn't calling that flop with a fd... he likes his hand.

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Genitruc
Old 06-21-2006, 06:29 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 I leaned towards fold guys. I'll post results shortly.

Question is (if anyone wants to add anything to this info-deprived post) how often would villain NOT have a boat here with this river push? Only info is that villain is up on table. My feeling was that this was a boat more often than not.

Only thing I don't understand : why not get it all in on the flop when I reraise if he has a set? Other scary thing of course was that 2pair hands made a boat on turn...

Such a shitty hand. So much money. So little info. Ugh.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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Genitruc
Old 06-21-2006, 06:31 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 One other thing which is slightly off-topic.

This hand occured during a true heater. I was up like 4 buy-ins over an 50 minutes.

I find I am more likely to make huge laydowns when I am running well. Anyone else notice this?
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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Warpe
Old 06-21-2006, 06:36 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genitruc
One other thing which is slightly off-topic.

This hand occured during a true heater. I was up like 4 buy-ins over an 50 minutes.

I find I am more likely to make huge laydowns when I am running well. Anyone else notice this?
For a lot of players it's the opposite. Be thankful you err on the conservative side.



 
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samsonite2100
Old 06-21-2006, 06:57 PM #8 (permalink)  
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No way is this a flush draw. On an obvious straight board Hero reraised ~ 2x an already swollen pot. PF action eliminates high PPS from Villain's range. I think this is definitely a fold.
 
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Fnord
Old 06-21-2006, 07:27 PM #9 (permalink)  
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The more I think about this, the more I think you have to call.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Genitruc
Old 06-21-2006, 07:52 PM #10 (permalink)  
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 Could you plz explain Fnord?

The fact that he didn't push the flop seems like the missing element to putting him on a set. Why would he slowplay a set on that draw-heavy board if I like my hand so much?

Something about this hand is particularly difficult. Haven't yet put my finger on it yet.

I think I have progressed out of noobness (haven't had PT for my whole "career" but am prob over 65k hands of ring plus oodles of s n go). I have thought a lot about quite a few tough hands by now but this one seems to take the cake. To repeat, what I find toughest is that I DON'T KNOW what it was. There is no time bank on B 2 B and I just felt lost.

What is it that smells here? Or am I just hallucinating. Results very soon.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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KingLizard
Old 06-21-2006, 08:25 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genitruc
I leaned towards fold guys. I'll post results shortly.

Question is (if anyone wants to add anything to this info-deprived post) how often would villain NOT have a boat here with this river push? Only info is that villain is up on table. My feeling was that this was a boat more often than not.

Only thing I don't understand : why not get it all in on the flop when I reraise if he has a set? Other scary thing of course was that 2pair hands made a boat on turn...

Such a shitty hand. So much money. So little info. Ugh.
Well I ain't no Phil Ivey but if I were the villain, I would put you on AQ+, or more likely a high PP, especially with your flop reraise. Me the villain, coming from the SB would most likely being play small PPs or 5 4s. When the flop comes, I have 2 pair against your "at best" overpair. I realize you're in the BB, but probably wouldn't consider you flopped a str8. Note, I have lost enough with that thinking that you might want to completely disregard my comments).

As to why not push on the flop, well I would just let you hang yourself as opposed to getting a fold to my push. When you checked on the turn, I would think ... ok I have to do this myself (especially since I think my set or FH is best).
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Genitruc
Old 06-21-2006, 10:58 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 Lizard you would put me on AQ+ NOT RAISING FROM THE BB?

Wow. We haven't played much together.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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jackvance
Old 06-21-2006, 11:03 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 This is usually a boat imo.
Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity
 
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Fnord
Old 06-21-2006, 11:07 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genitruc
Could you plz explain Fnord?
What range of hands is he playing pre-flop and playing like that on the flop?

Why did you check the turn? Did you think you were beat and intended to fold to a big bet? Did you figure way ahead/behind and decide to induce a bluff?

The river bet is slightly less than pot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Genitruc
Old 06-22-2006, 12:01 AM #15 (permalink)  
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 Fnord to be honest I think I psychologically gave up on the hand when the 2nd 5 hit the turn. If he had bet I would have been more inclined to put him on a weaker hand. With the speed of 4 tabling 6-max I couldn't really think this through like I've done since.

On the spur of the moment, I put him on a set on the flop or 2 pair min. I can't see a big draw possibly smooth-calling that flop reraise I made to 66E. As soon as the potential 2 pr/ set filled up on the turn I think I looked at the table and said BAD to myself. The only hand I can put him on w that flop action that I still beat (and even this is a stretch) is bottom 2. But even then : why the smooth-call?

Nothing made a whole lot of sense and on the spur of the moment it smelled too boaty.

Your point about the size of the river bet is well taken. But I think I'm trailing at least 60-70% of the time here.

BTW :

Game # 359003173 - Texas Hold'em No Limit EUR 0.50/1 - Table "Logrono"

Players(max 6):
Ravageur3 (EUR 140.10 in seat 1)
Ford_F (EUR 57.50 in seat 2)
Signor_H (EUR 61.30 in seat 3)
VILLAIN (EUR 180.75 in seat 4)
HERO (EUR 245.70 in seat 5)
ubersanta (EUR 108.90 in seat 6)

Dealer: Signor_H
Small Blind: VILLAIN (0.50)
Big Blind: HERO (1.00)

HERO was dealt : Ad-3h

ubersanta Call (1.00)
Ravageur3 Fold
Ford_F Fold
Signor_H Fold
VILLAIN Call (0.50)
HERO Check

Flop 5d - 2d - 4h YAY I HAVE 2ND NUTS!

VILLAIN Bet (2.75)
think I'll smooth call and pump an innocent turn w more ppl in hand!
HERO Call (2.75)
ubersanta Raise (15.00) OOH SOMEONE LIKES THEIR HAND!!!
VILLAIN Call (12.25)
HERO Raise (66.00) K. TIME TO TAKE THIS POT DAAOOOOWN.
ubersanta Fold
VILLAIN Call (53.75) WTF? WTF? SMOOTH-CALL WITH OUR STACKS? ohh.... he must be slowplaying his set vs. my apparent 2 pair! AWESOME!


Turn 5d - 2d - 4h - 5c

VILLAIN Check
HERO Check and GASPS AT LIKELY BOAT... VERY LIKELY THAT HERO CHECKED THE NOW-NUTS TO ME!!!

River 5d - 2d - 4h - 5c - 9h

VILLAIN All-In (111.00) OH GOD. THAT'S NOT EVEN 1/2 THE POT BUT HE WANTS TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE SOME RIDICULOUS MISSED DRAW
HERO Fold HAHAHAHAHA I AM SUUUCH A SHARK. I MAKE SUUUUCH GOOD LAYDOWNS.

VILLAIN Payback (111.00)

VILLAIN shows: 6h - 8d (a pair of fives)

HERO VOMITS THEN DECIDES TO NEVER FOLD AGAIN AS LONG AS HE LIVES.
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Fnord
Old 06-22-2006, 12:07 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genitruc
The only hand I can put him on w that flop action that I still beat (and even this is a stretch) is bottom 2.
Then one of us must suck at reading hands. Draw heavy board and he went like CALL CALL CALL CALL CALL, PUSH. I'm thinking either it's either the immortal nuts or he's drawing (and didn't get there.) A set/2pr often giggles like a school girl and goes to war for stacks right there.

FWIW: The turn is a very interesting street.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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KingLizard
Old 06-22-2006, 12:35 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genitruc
Lizard you would put me on AQ+ NOT RAISING FROM THE BB?

Wow. We haven't played much together.
No we haven't LOL. In my humble experience at the 25NL tables, AQ in the BB sees the raise ahead and figures he'll just ride on that one. I seldom see the BB reraise a preflop raise made in EP unless they have a monster. Again, different stakes make the situation ... uh ... situational.
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Genitruc
Old 06-22-2006, 12:38 AM #18 (permalink)  
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 No prob king. Just weird cuz there was NO raising preflop... only a caller. Don't worry though, that stuff happens at higher limits (although mine aren't particularly high) too so your hypothesis is by no means impossible.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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johnny_fish
Old 06-23-2006, 06:15 AM #19 (permalink)  
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You'll see a missed combodraw here maybe 5-10% of the time (43d), but also the nut straight maybe 5%. Other than that it's 55/22/44/52/54. Crying fold
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Miffed22001
Old 06-23-2006, 05:12 PM #20 (permalink)  
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 fold

bet the turn
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Genitruc
Old 06-24-2006, 07:22 AM #21 (permalink)  
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 bet the turn why?

How can I put him on a foldable hand on the turn?

What can he call to 66e on flop but fold on turn? Higher straight? bottom 2?

Folding turn will simply pot commit me when my read tells me i m now beat. I can't fold after making any reasonable turn bet w our stack sizes.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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Miffed22001
Old 06-24-2006, 12:56 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genitruc
bet the turn why?

How can I put him on a foldable hand on the turn?

What can he call to 66e on flop but fold on turn? Higher straight? bottom 2?

Folding turn will simply pot commit me when my read tells me i m now beat. I can't fold after making any reasonable turn bet w our stack sizes.
you showed weakness on the turn and opp pushed and bought it.
Bet the turn and opp has to value bet you oop if he has you beat or else he folds if hes on trash.
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Genitruc
Old 06-24-2006, 04:20 PM #23 (permalink)  
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 Can't put him on air Miffed. Just can't.
when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?
 
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Miffed22001
Old 06-24-2006, 04:23 PM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genitruc
Can't put him on air Miffed. Just can't.
but if you dont bet your open to any bet on the river oop

btw, why isnt it all in on the flop if opp has a set. He had 1/3rd his stack invested so he isnt folding is he?
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Genitruc
Old 06-24-2006, 04:28 PM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genitruc
Can't put him on air Miffed. Just can't.
but if you dont bet your open to any bet on the river oop

btw, why isnt it all in on the flop if opp has a set. He had 1/3rd his stack invested so he isnt folding is he?
No kidding. that's the part of this hh that I don't get.

Only explanation i can get is he has 2 pair... but why would he want to slowplay that?

In retrospect, nothing makes sense about this hand. He plays it like 3-6.

If he's good player thinking he's against aware opponent he could be disguising his set by smooth-calling my big raise on flop.

I'm now thinking I should have just pushed... but if I do he doesn't call. but if he doesn't call i don't get outplayed on later streets. meh.
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Miffed22001
Old 06-24-2006, 04:29 PM #26 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genitruc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
Originally Posted by Genitruc
Can't put him on air Miffed. Just can't.
but if you dont bet your open to any bet on the river oop

btw, why isnt it all in on the flop if opp has a set. He had 1/3rd his stack invested so he isnt folding is he?
No kidding. that's the part of this hh that I don't get.

Only explanation i can get is he has 2 pair... but why would he want to slowplay that?

In retrospect, nothing makes sense about this hand. He plays it like 3-6.

If he's good player thinking he's against aware opponent he could be disguising his set by smooth-calling my big raise on flop.

I'm now thinking I should have just pushed... but if I do he doesn't call. but if he doesn't call i don't get outplayed on later streets. meh.
i think not betting the turn was your biggest mistake, not any of the flop play. Esp on b2b
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Miffed22001
Old 06-24-2006, 04:36 PM #27 (permalink)  
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Quote:
In retrospect, nothing makes sense about this hand. He plays it like 3-6.
Thats the biggest thing i see. The hand makes no sense with the ange of hands we expect except perhaps 63. Then if we continue to bet anyway opp has the hardest choice.

Quote:
If he's good player thinking he's against aware opponent he could be disguising his set by smooth-calling my big raise on flop.
Why? So many cards can hit that kill his action. On that flop he wants to get a lot of money in early with a set surely? Thats what doesnt make sense to me.

Quote:
I'm now thinking I should have just pushed... but if I do he doesn't call. but if he doesn't call i don't get outplayed on later streets. meh.
I dont think this is such a horrible line with these stack depths. Im open to it not being the best however.
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