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hig13

08-20-2004, 05:17 PM Post subject: Post flop stragegy

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: Illinois

Posts: 25

I've read a lot about pre flop strategies, and that's really helped me understand when and where to play what cards. My question would be to anyone willing to share, what does your post flop strategy look like? I've found that when I open my pre flop strategy (maybe not as much as some of the pros) to see a few more cheap flops, my winning percentages tend to go up slightly. It would seem to me that if I could get a little better post flop, I would be able to up that percentage a little more.

Is it possible or does it make since that if I can play profitable poker seeing about 20% of the flops without much of a post flop strategy, I could make more money if I would see 40% of the flops and play with a better post flop strategy?

I would like what you guys think?

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SteveO

08-20-2004, 07:42 PM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2004

Posts: 755

You get the world famous "it depends."

Are you playing limit or NL? What is your position? What is your hand? How hard have you hit the flop, if at all? What was the action like pre-flop? How many opponents are in the hand?

First, contrary to what some may say, your post-flop play is dictated by your pre-flop play. You still only want to see 18-25%. It is your % win when flop is seen that matters.

Example 1. You hit a perfect flop! Ex. AA KK or high pair and you flop a set or a very low, unconnected rainbow board; flopped nut str8 w/ no flush; nut flush with no pairs on board...you get the picture.
The objective is to get the most money into pot by not scaring anyone out. Check up front. Slow play. Even give a free card to give someone a chance to catch something. This is the easiest example.

Example 2. You flop a Draw. Ex. Open ended straight or 4 to a flush. Are you drawing to the nuts or playing suited 23 free from BB? If there is not a lot of action semibluff. By semibluff I mean a 1/2 pot bet no little min bet. If your opponents are giving you a cheap card with a min raise call or even reraise to throw them off. It is also important to consider your pot odds and implied odds here.

Example 3. Top 2 Pair or TPTK. Be aggressive. Find out where you stand. Don't give a free card. The amount of aggression depends on the board and position. If you are in late position and facing a single bet, reraise to find out where you are at. If you are reraised again you might want to pause. Never just call. Bet or raise. If you are in late position and it is raised and reraised get out of the way.

Example 4. You miss the flop completely. Do you have overcards? How many 1 or 2? How many opponents? Are they tight? What is your position? If you are in late position and up against tight opponets try a bluff. But a bluff is not a tiny mini bet you gotta bet just like you do when you have something. Beware if the check raise! (Are you playing against rippy?...beware of the resteal). Only try a bluff when you have one or two opponents. It is also more effective if you showed strength pre-flop with a raise.

Your pre-flop play has a lot to do with post flop play because it can influence the number of players still in the hand and their initial read on your strength. If you see 40% of flops you will be playing too much of a guessing game post flop in a full game. Shorthanded is a whole different story where you play the betting and opponents and position more than the cards.

Send lawyers, guns and money - the sh*t has hit the fan!

Krapp

08-20-2004, 09:05 PM

#3 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 313

My average stats are 50-60% fold on preflop. Before reading the NL section in Super System, I never played semi-connected suitors (26s) or better (36s, 46s, etc). But I have found these to be very profitable if you can limp in with them and see lots of turns cheap. I play Qx suited too, but I find the 26+suited much more enjoyable to play, especially when you pick-up a small straight and bust someone. These plays are sometimes bad when lots the opps behind you are aggressive and constantly raising and reraising the preflop and flop (3xBB or more). Much better at passive tables.

Raising small preflop paint (with an Ace) seems to work well for me too (also 10/10+). Of course raising more with bigger hands is to be expected... All of this depends on your position though. The limit and NL sections in the Super System was helpful in explaining these concepts.

Fnord

08-20-2004, 09:08 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Krapp, how tall are the stacks and how tight is the limit you're playing in?

I went on a suited connector and semi-connector binge around the end of the golden age of Party full $25NL and lost a lot of money until I discoved why they suck in that environment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Humphrind

08-20-2004, 09:33 PM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2004

Location: Kansas City

Posts: 1,887

Post flop play:

The most important thing. Analyze the board. What is out there? What could be out there? Is there a made flush? A made straight? A draw? Trips? You should look at aby flop and have all the draws, and the nuts picked out. Use that information to work off of.
I'd like to keep this small, so I'll only do 2 examples, but notice that I don't mention what you have, cause for this, it doesn't matter.

You have a lot out there. Any A will make a good pair. KJ, KQ, QJ, 42, 54 and 52 have an inside straight draw 2

have a flush draw.

No flush posibility, any 4 has trips, JJ could have a full house along with J4. Also, with the board paired, you still have to watch out for other pocket pairs. 88, TT or QQ look pretty good with this board.

The second thing is remembering what happened pre-flop. Was it raised? Did SB get a cheap flop? Did BB get a free flop? In the first flop, you have 42, 54 and 52 with an inside straight draw. But how often will someone with a 52 see the flop? Rarely unless they are a big blind and see a free flop. So ask youself, was it raised pre-flop? Yes? Than you can probably rule out 52, 42 and 54.

3rd, read other players. Look at what a person did pre-flop, what the board brings and how he plays post flop.
There is a 4X BB raise pre-flop.
The flop brings

:Ts: and he checks post flop?
I could easily put this player on KQ, AK, AQ etc. and he missed his flop. but it is also likely that he has TT and is slow-playing his trips.

4th, position.
In the previous example I have a rag flop with a big pre-flop raise. If you are in early position it is not a good idea to stab at this pot. You need to see what others do behind you. Overpairs are strong here. If you are last to act and you have a check to you, now is the time to stab.

Add in about 500,000 hands of experience and you have an effective post flop strategy.

I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.

Krapp

08-20-2004, 09:38 PM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 313

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Krapp, how tall are the stacks and how tight is the limit you're playing in?

Its $50 NL, .25/.50 on Paradise. If I am fairly confident I can get to the flop/turn with 1x-2xBB ($1) or less betting on each round, I will play these no problem. Assuming the flop gave me 8+ outs. Especially easy to note, if you pick the tables where the average pot sizes are $10 or less.

hig13

08-20-2004, 10:06 PM

#7 (permalink)

Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: Illinois

Posts: 25

Thanks for putting so much consideration into your replies. I spend a lot of time rethinking and rehashing hands, and I'm trying to come up with a post flop strategy that I can be successful with.

To answer the earlier question, I play NL, $20 - $25 MMT tournaments. 3 kids and a wife keep me from playing as much as I would like, but on the bright side, it does give me plenty of time between tournaments to evaluate my play.

Thanks again for all your advice! Keep it coming.

Insane people are always sure that they are fine. It is only the sane people who are willing to admit that they are crazy.

Fnord

08-20-2004, 10:09 PM

#8 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

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If there was one or two paragraphs that could tell you how to play post-flop there wouldn't be much skill edge left for us. The *best* way to learn how to play post-flop is to read hand history posts, post difficult hands yourself and discuss with others the *many* factors that play into these decisions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Humphrind

08-20-2004, 10:19 PM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: May 2004

Location: Kansas City

Posts: 1,887

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

If there was one or two paragraphs that could tell you how to play post-flop there wouldn't be much skill edge left for us.

Of course, 1 or 2 paragraphs won't do it. Luckily, my post had about 6 paragraphs.

Seriously, the most important thing I wrote was the last part. Experience counts ten fold to anything that you will ever read. Reading puts you on the right path, but experience gets you to your destination.

I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway.
Whatever it is...
I'm against it.

michael1123

08-20-2004, 10:34 PM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Rochester Hills, MI

Posts: 1,720

Yeah, I couldn't possibly begin to describe how I play post flop, as a whole. Too many possible scenarios.

The key is certainly tons of experience. Develop good reading skills, factoring in what you know about your opponents style of play. Once you've done that, trust your reads and fold if they say you're way behind. Likewise, calling down or reraising with bottom pair or worse can work too, if you have position on them and a good read. Without position, online, you may correctly read that they have nothing on the turn, but if a high card on the river hits, you don't know if it helped them. If a draw hits, and you've correctly read that they're drawing, you don't know if that's their draw, etc.

My flops seen percentage really varies depending on my stack size (in tournaments), the table, and of course the cards I'm getting. But 30% isn't all that rare for me. 50% seems pretty ridiculous, unless you're in a shorthanded ring game. And if you're seeing that many flops, you're not going to get much respect, and people are less likely to believe your bluffs.

Fnord

08-20-2004, 10:46 PM

#11 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,336

Quote:

Originally Posted by michael1123

My flops seen percentage really varies depending on my stack size (in tournaments), the table, and of course the cards I'm getting. But 30% isn't all that rare for me. 50% seems pretty ridiculous, unless you're in a shorthanded ring game. And if you're seeing that many flops, you're not going to get much respect, and people are less likely to believe your bluffs.

My VP$IP for LHE is under 20%, and I think I'm a little too loose in spots. My cash full NLHE game is even tighter (I rarely play unsuited broadway cards that aren't AK or AQ.) I don't see how more than around 30% VP$IP in a full cash game can be profitable under any table conditions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

michael1123

08-20-2004, 11:22 PM

#12 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2004

Location: Rochester Hills, MI

Posts: 1,720

I don't. I'm talking about in SNGs and MTTs. 30%, being about as high as I regularly get, isn't rare for me given the right conditions, like I said.

That said, 15% isn't that rare for me either. Its somewhere between those two numbers usually, but exactly where it is varies from tournament to tournament.

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