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Perhaps the worst flop for Aces...

  
 
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lowBoy
Old 05-30-2005, 07:04 PM     Post subject: Perhaps the worst flop for Aces... #1 (permalink)  
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Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) converter

CO ($36)
Button ($32.6)
Hero ($46.2)
BB ($24.2)
UTG ($25.53)
MP ($25.4)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A, A. Hero posts a blind of $0.1.
3 folds, Button raises to $1, Hero (poster) raises to $1.9, 1 fold, Button calls $1.

Flop: ($4.25) 9, K, K (2 players)
Hero bets $3, Button calls $3.

Turn: ($10.25) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: ($10.25) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $1, Button raises to $5, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $16.25

Button seemed like a decently tight player, fairly aggro after the flop... I bet out to see if I could take it right there, but he called. I thought I was beat at that point, and shouldn't have put that extra dollar in the river - I was trying to make it seem like I was going for the check raise, except that's what happened. He could have been pulling a fast one with AQ or QQ, but I think he had the king...
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Bmxicle
Old 05-30-2005, 07:28 PM #2 (permalink)  
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depending on my read i'd probably call that getting 4:1 odds on the river, but i do have to admit that it looks like your usuall slowplay, although i'd kind of expect a bet on the turn from him.
 
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dsaxton
Old 05-30-2005, 07:54 PM #3 (permalink)  
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He probably had K-Q. I'd reraise more preflop, bet on the flop, then check-call on the turn and river depending on the size of bets relative to the pot size. I don't think betting on the river is really a good play since it seems clear he's slow-playing 3 kings, and even if he doesn't have a king, he'll be unlikely to call a bet on the river with a losing hand.
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koolmoe
Old 05-30-2005, 08:04 PM #4 (permalink)  
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I consider that a pretty good flop for AA. When you bet $1 on that river, it makes it easy to make a move on you with with a pretty wide range of hands, including hands like TT and JJ.
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lowBoy
Old 05-30-2005, 08:53 PM #5 (permalink)  
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I thought about the odds and his lack of turn bet, but decided that he had the kings, slowplayed them, and then that $5 bet at the end smelled like a value raise to me.

Usually I re-raise 3x the original raise in this case but I wanted some action, and I thought that the BB would fold to $2. The higher raise would give me more info, that's for sure.

I guess TT-QQ, would and AQ QJs could call my raise but like I said, he was decently tight. I still don't think it's a good flop for aces.
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koolmoe
Old 05-30-2005, 09:24 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowBoy
I still don't think it's a good flop for aces.
Consider the range of hands he would raise and then just call your reraise. If you include just QQ, JJ, and AK, then he is statistically more likely to hold QQ or JJ (12 ways each) than AK (4 ways) when two K's flop. Thus, a reasonably tight player is 6x more likely to be behind on that river than ahead. You could also include KQs, but then you have to start throwing in at least AQs and maybe some other hands that you are easily ahead of on the flop.
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lowBoy
Old 05-30-2005, 09:51 PM #7 (permalink)  
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I hadn't thought about it quite like that... what really threw me though is the appearance of the slowplay. I was thinking about what he could have called the flop bet with, and what he must have been thinking then... if he had TT-QQ, then he could have put me on an unimproved AQ trying for a continuation bet, or a lower PP like he had.

Thanks for the insight, koolmoe.
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Greedo017
Old 05-31-2005, 12:09 AM #8 (permalink)  
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 Reraise more preflop, to 3-4 dollars, then I play it the same, except no 1 dollar bet on the river, that's gonna induce bluffs. check, and see how much they bet to see if you want to call or fold.
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FishMagician
Old 05-31-2005, 12:14 AM #9 (permalink)  
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I would bet the turn, but check-calling the turn and river is good too, depending on how much he bets.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 05-31-2005, 04:33 AM #10 (permalink)  
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WTF ARE YOU DOING!?

I would have owned you 10 times to broadway if you played that hand like that every time the flop is scary.

You definity bet the turn and bet it strong. You're beat by two kings and it's not uncommon for people to take one off and try to pick something up on the turn. Don't even give him a chance to get cute. If he wants this pot, you have to make him know it's going to take his whole stack to do it and you could easily have AK.

By betting the turn, you now know beyond a shadow of a doubt what he has by his action.

If you check the turn, check the river and hope for a cheap showdown. You should only fold to some crazy overbet.

The weak bet + check on the turn + the conintuation bet on the flop + the raise preflop means it's an easy raise for the villian on the river.

EDIT- I dunno why this made me so angry. I'm running off very little sleep right now.

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lowBoy
Old 05-31-2005, 06:57 AM #11 (permalink)  
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haha... though angry, your post has merit.

Let's say I put out a $7-$10 bet on the turn and I get called. Then what? Push all in? Check to let him take a bluff at the pot?

My river bet was weak, but his raise seemed small for a bluff based on what was in the pot. Maybe that's why it was a good bluff (if he didn't have a king), becuase it looked like value betting to me.
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FishMagician
Old 05-31-2005, 07:07 AM #12 (permalink)  
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If you get called on the turn, you're done. No way he calls two bets on that board without a king.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 05-31-2005, 12:06 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowBoy
haha... though angry, your post has merit.

Let's say I put out a $7-$10 bet on the turn and I get called. Then what? Push all in? Check to let him take a bluff at the pot?

My river bet was weak, but his raise seemed small for a bluff based on what was in the pot. Maybe that's why it was a good bluff (if he didn't have a king), becuase it looked like value betting to me.
Then the jig is up. That's the beauty of the play. Just a little money to clear up all the confusion.

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Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
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lowBoy
Old 06-01-2005, 01:54 AM #14 (permalink)  
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Yeah, that's my thought as well... why would he be around with no king after two bets? Unless he has aces as well, but I don't think that's even worth considering, or he's stupid with an AQ, QQ, JJ.

Is a 3/4 to pot sized bet the right way to play this, or could I save money and get the same info with a 1/2 pot bet?
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PokerPatNEU
Old 06-01-2005, 02:24 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Bet the turn. You're giving the pot away by checking and sissy betting the river. I put him on a smaller pair. You said he was fairly tight, and he PFR'd and called your re-raise, hard to put him on anything worse than a pair or AK, and with you holding 2 aces and 2 kings on the board AK looks statistically less likely....you're aces look best here. A bet on the turn will let ya know, and you'll either pick up a pot or only lose another couple dollars.
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ChezJ
Old 06-01-2005, 09:05 PM #16 (permalink)  
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 tough hand, but definitely not the worst flop for aces. check this out:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=11132
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