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Bmxicle

06-04-2005, 12:10 AM Post subject: People drawing to flushes

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Vancouver

Posts: 947

What do you generally do when you are pretty sure that someone is drawing to a flush and it hits. Do you check and risk being bluffed, do you bet a small amount and then call a reasonable raise? Do you check call? I know there isn't one specific thing to do, but nothing works well it seems. How often are you folding on the river when the flush hits?

I think i just shoulda folded this one, i'm so happy that he was calling my huge bets just on a draw.

POKERSTARS GAME #1821603981: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2005/06/02 - 23:59:26 (ET)
Table 'Tithonus III' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Rogue23 ($196.85 in chips)
Seat 3: vtmadmman ($155.65 in chips)
Seat 4: CrownMyCoke ($159.45 in chips)
Seat 5: funkyruz ($19 in chips)
Seat 6: Bmxicle ($370 in chips)
funkyruz: posts small blind $1
Bmxicle: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Bmxicle [Qc Qd]
Rogue23: folds
vtmadmman: folds
CrownMyCoke: raises $4 to $6
funkyruz: folds
Bmxicle: raises $6 to $12
CrownMyCoke: calls $6
*** FLOP *** [7c 7h 4h]
Bmxicle: bets $15
CrownMyCoke: calls $15
*** TURN *** [7c 7h 4h] [6c]
Bmxicle: bets $40
CrownMyCoke: calls $40
*** RIVER *** [7c 7h 4h 6c] [5h]
Bmxicle: bets $20
CrownMyCoke: raises $22 to $42
Bmxicle: calls $22
*** SHOW DOWN ***
CrownMyCoke: shows [Th 8h] (a flush, Ten high)
Bmxicle: mucks hand
CrownMyCoke collected $217 from pot
Bmxicle said, "holy **** thank you"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $219 | Rake $2
Board [7c 7h 4h 6c 5h]
Seat 1: Rogue23 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: vtmadmman folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: CrownMyCoke (button) showed [Th 8h] and won ($217) with a flush, Ten high
Seat 5: funkyruz (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: Bmxicle (big blind) mucked [Qc Qd]

Checking is weak and you risk being bluffed out of the pot, i think i was either beat by a set or something or by a flush here, but it could have been a bluff.

POKERSTARS GAME #1822665498: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2005/06/03 - 03:06:22 (ET)
Table 'Tauris' Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: PocketJiggaz ($152.05 in chips)
Seat 3: hamade ($104.95 in chips)
Seat 4: Bmxicle ($193 in chips)
Seat 5: mokaman ($190.65 in chips)
Seat 6: bobo333 ($81.35 in chips)
Bmxicle: posts small blind $1
mokaman: posts big blind $2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Bmxicle [Ad Kh]
bobo333: folds
PocketJiggaz: calls $2
hamade said, ")"
hamade: folds
Bmxicle: raises $5 to $7
mokaman: calls $5
chevychase joins the table at seat #2
PocketJiggaz: calls $5
*** FLOP *** [3c Kc 5h]
Bmxicle: bets $15
mokaman: folds
PocketJiggaz: calls $15
*** TURN *** [3c Kc 5h] [Td]
Bmxicle: bets $40
PocketJiggaz: calls $40
*** RIVER *** [3c Kc 5h Td] [Qc]
Bmxicle: checks
PocketJiggaz: bets $90.05 and is all-in
Bmxicle: folds
PocketJiggaz collected $129 from pot
PocketJiggaz: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $131 | Rake $2
Board [3c Kc 5h Td Qc]
Seat 1: PocketJiggaz collected ($129)
Seat 3: hamade (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Bmxicle (small blind) folded on the River
Seat 5: mokaman (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: bobo333 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

And even though this was in a tourney it demonstrates the same concept. I didn't fold this cause i still had 9 outs and people generally don't just push allin when they hit their flush. Also i was a little tilty i think

POKERSTARS GAME #1825648026: TOURNAMENT #8596460, HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL II (15/30) - 2005/06/03 - 18:05:14 (ET)
Table '8596460 1' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Purr Of Aces (1530 in chips)
Seat 2: Stevo72 (1510 in chips)
Seat 3: stanwinston (1650 in chips)
Seat 4: benanzak (1320 in chips)
Seat 5: EBAM (1380 in chips)
Seat 6: Bmxicle (1430 in chips)
Seat 7: offthewalls (1760 in chips)
Seat 8: ChipSniper05 (1450 in chips)
Seat 9: rainboy_71 (1470 in chips)
Bmxicle: posts small blind 15
offthewalls: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Bmxicle [Ac Ad]
ChipSniper05: folds
rainboy_71: folds
Purr Of Aces: calls 30
Stevo72: folds
stanwinston: folds
benanzak: folds
EBAM: calls 30
Bmxicle: raises 60 to 90
offthewalls: folds
Purr Of Aces: calls 60
EBAM: calls 60
*** FLOP *** [8c Ah 4c]
Bmxicle: bets 210
Purr Of Aces: folds
EBAM: calls 210
*** TURN *** [8c Ah 4c] [2c]
Bmxicle: bets 210
EBAM: raises 870 to 1080 and is all-in
Bmxicle: calls 870
*** RIVER *** [8c Ah 4c 2c] [Td]
Bmxicle said, "****er"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Bmxicle: shows [Ac Ad] (three of a kind, Aces)
EBAM: shows [As 5c] (a pair of Aces)
Bmxicle collected 2880 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2880 | Rake 0
Board [8c Ah 4c 2c Td]
Seat 1: Purr Of Aces folded on the Flop
Seat 2: Stevo72 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: stanwinston folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: benanzak folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: EBAM (button) showed [As 5c] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 6: Bmxicle (small blind) showed [Ac Ad] and won (2880) with three of a kind, Aces
Seat 7: offthewalls (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: ChipSniper05 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: rainboy_71 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

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dalecooper

06-04-2005, 09:22 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Sep 2004

Posts: 3,107

This question came up a while back. I still haven't changed my approach:

- about 2/3 of the time I use an "autopilot bet" where I bet the same amount as I did on the last street. So if I bet $5 on the flop and the flush card comes on the turn, I bet $5 again. It accomplishes a few purposes all at once: 1. if they don't have the flush it suggests that you may have it yourself, or at least aren't particularly scared of it; 2. if they have the flush and raise you, you're getting off cheap; 3. it sends mixed signals that you're either betting without thinking, or sending out an intentionally weak bet to sucker them in, or sending out a weak bet to feel them out. Basically they don't know what the bet means so they may be less likely to bluff you. I strengthen this bet by often betting my flush draws exactly the same way - bet $5 on the draw, $5 again if I hit it on the turn.

- another 1/3 of the time I check-raise. I use this under specific circumstances, which are: 1. I know this player is capable of bluffing; 2. the possible bluff bet isn't so large that it gets me in serious trouble to raise; 3. my hand is strong enough that if they have something other than the flush, I'm not that worried. The great thing about the check-raise here is that it's a fearless move: it reps that you either have the flush or at least don't believe for one second that they have it. The bad thing about it is that it can get you into a world of trouble if you raise too much and pot commit yourself. So the above 3 criteria are very important, and you don't want to raise that much. I often will min-raise or raise just above the min to make sure I'm not getting too much money into the hand.

DimitriT

06-06-2005, 02:35 PM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: May 2005

Posts: 614

Raising $5 as a defense to the bluff is interesting.. If they bluff you 10%
of the time, your $5 will catch them and prevent the bluff. The rest of
the time though, your $5 goes to the flush holder. Let's say there's a
$50 pot. They are bluffing about 10% of the time, so you pay your $5
and win that pot of $50. The rest of the time (90%) you pay $5 for no
benefit which comes out to $45. Clearly this is a beneficial play. But there
may be times the bluffer will raise your $5 and you will lose the benefit
for those hands.

Another interesting question: how often should I call a flush raise.

How often do you think someone will bluff you on the flush? 30%? 40%?
Most people will hardly ever bluff a flush so it may be as low as 10%.

That means your $10 call will only hit 1 in 10 hands. If the pot is $50,
your call will net you $60 over these 10 hands.

The rest of the hands (9 of them) you lose $10. This means over these
hands you will lose $90.

Clearly the call is a losing proposition with a 10% bluff rate.

Now how about a 20% or 30% bluff rate

dsaxton

06-10-2005, 07:20 AM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2005

Location: Arlington, VA

Posts: 2,667

If you're fairly sure that your opponent has outdrawn you, isn't it pretty clear that you should check?

I usually check, but sometimes will make a standard bet both for information and for value.

Check-raising seems like the worst option, since you risk giving a free card and are putting yourself into a position to commit a lot of money to the pot with a second best hand. If your opponent calls on the flop as though on a draw, then bets when the third flush card comes, in general, isn't he/she likelier to have a flush than not?

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