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Obvious fold, right?

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RevolverX

05-22-2006, 12:34 AM Post subject: Obvious fold, right?

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 112

PokerStars Game #5011278656: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2006/05/21 - 20:29:48 (ET)
Table 'Brauna' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: 12many ($9.40 in chips)
Seat 2: Steppchild ($6.55 in chips)
Seat 4: 34u43y ($2.70 in chips)
Seat 5: coumela ($11.15 in chips)
Seat 6: Harrison57 ($9.80 in chips)
Seat 7: glittergulch ($10 in chips)
Seat 8: AngelGarciaM ($20.60 in chips)
Seat 9: Hero ($9.55 in chips)
12many: posts small blind $0.05
Steppchild: posts big blind $0.10
bigbigbuck: sits out
glittergulch: posts big blind $0.10

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Ah As]
34u43y: folds
coumela: folds
Harrison57: folds
glittergulch: raises $0.30 to $0.40
AngelGarciaM: folds
Hero: raises $1.20 to $1.60
12many: folds
Steppchild: folds
glittergulch: raises $4 to $5.60
Hero: calls $4

*** FLOP *** [Kc Js Ks]
glittergulch: bets $3

Fold, call, or reraise?

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RevolverX

05-22-2006, 12:48 AM

#2 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 112

Let me throw another one in that just happened.

PokerStars Game #5011450046: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2006/05/21 - 20:44:20 (ET)
Table 'Brauna' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: 12many ($13.90 in chips)
Seat 2: Steppchild ($6.80 in chips)
Seat 3: bigbigbuck ($11.25 in chips)
Seat 4: 34u43y ($2.45 in chips)
Seat 6: Harrison57 ($9.50 in chips)
Seat 7: glittergulch ($8.55 in chips)
Seat 9: Hero ($8.75 in chips)
bigbigbuck: posts small blind $0.05
34u43y: posts big blind $0.10

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Kh Kd]
Harrison57: folds
glittergulch: raises $0.50 to $0.60
Hero: raises $1.20 to $1.80
12many: calls $1.80
Steppchild: folds
bigbigbuck: folds
34u43y: folds
glittergulch: calls $1.20

*** FLOP *** [Jd 7s Qd]
glittergulch: bets $6.75 and is all-in
Hero: folds
12many: folds
glittergulch collected $5.30 from pot
glittergulch: doesn't show hand

I figured he had JJ or QQ based on that.

Genitruc

05-22-2006, 01:00 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Posts: 4,463

Genitruc is an unknown quantity at this point

Wow man. IMO these are some pretty big laydowns at these limits. Unless you have a solid read I don't think you can let go of the KK. The AA is marginal. If he's a weak-tighties who'll get scared of any board, then maybe you can let go of the AA. There is a good chance though that villain sees 2 kings on board and says "well, he probably doesn't have one of THOSE... "...

when the vpip's are high and the value bets are like razors, who can be safe?

andy-akb

05-22-2006, 01:00 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Location: Maine

Posts: 1,836

Hand 1 I would push preflop, as played I would push on the flop.

Hand 2 I call, can you really give villain that much credit? Why would he open push a set? I wouldnt be surprised to see a whiffed AK, AJ or AQ, even a flush draw. At $10NL you are losing money by not playing your big hands like AA and KK stronger.

RevolverX

05-22-2006, 01:34 AM

#5 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 112

Here's another one. I think I was beat here.

PokerStars Game #5011970728: Hold'em No Limit ($0.05/$0.10) - 2006/05/21 - 21:28:08 (ET)
Table 'Biela' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: aroc ($1 in chips)
Seat 3: MLevinson ($6.90 in chips)
Seat 4: Harrison57 ($8.10 in chips)
Seat 5: Match 45 ($13.30 in chips)
Seat 6: Hero ($15.25 in chips)
Seat 8: boyd_m ($27.05 in chips)
Seat 9: "wildcat"pro ($8.40 in chips)
MLevinson: posts small blind $0.05
Harrison57: posts big blind $0.10
DaWizard420: sits out

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Qc Qs]
Match 45: calls $0.10
Hero: raises $0.40 to $0.50
boyd_m: folds
"wildcat"pro: folds
aroc: folds
MLevinson: folds
Harrison57: folds
Match 45: calls $0.40

*** FLOP *** [Jd 2c 3d]
Match 45: checks
Hero: bets $0.55
Match 45: raises $0.55 to $1.10
Hero: raises $3 to $4.10
Match 45: calls $3

*** TURN *** [Jd 2c 3d] [2d]
Match 45: checks
Hero: bets $3
Match 45: raises $3 to $6
Hero: folds

I lost almost a full buyin folding here, which sucked, but I put him on a boat or flush with the turn there.

andy-akb

05-22-2006, 02:07 AM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Maine

Posts: 1,836

Can you respond to the comments we made? And if you are going to change your name to hero, just run the hands through a converter.

Something missing from most of your posts is reads or atleast stats, how has this opponent played?

I think this isnt as bad as the others, but I still dont like it. Preflop is fine. Flop isnt horrible, I tihnk Id bet atleast 2/3 the pot though. I dont know if 3beting a checkraise is the best play though. Id have a tough time with this hand. on the turn I think you should just check behind, by betting here you are making this hand play more difficult and your bet isnt very strong either. There is about $9 in the pot and you bet for about 1/3 of that, the minraise is giving you 6:1 odds, so I think you have priced yourself in for a call, I still dont like it though. Given the stack sizes I would push over this raise and hope for AJ or some random hand, but I would not expect to be ahead very much which is why I would just want to get to showdown cheap.

IowaSkinsFan

05-22-2006, 02:31 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Posts: 7,148

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Play higher stakes where these laydowns are a whole lot better.

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RevolverX

05-22-2006, 02:40 AM

#8 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 112

The problem is at these stakes it's hard to get reads on my opponents because they come and go every ten minutes or so. The ones that stay around are tight aggressive just like me, so it's usually a clear laydown when they reraise my TPTK or two pair etc.

Sometimes I want to take their bets for granted, and assume they are betting on a pair, but to often they aren't, and actually have me beat, so I try to avoid calling or raising all-ins or huge bets until I see the villain has a tendency to do it often.

So when I'm against situations like this and it's coming from a guy who is relatively new to the table and I can't get an accurate read on how he plays, I tend to just give them the benefit of the doubt that they indeed do have a better hand then me, especially when my hand is only TPTK.

RevolverX

05-22-2006, 02:52 AM

#9 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: May 2006

Posts: 112

And here is an example that just happened of why what I said above is true

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($12.95)
SB ($9.60)
BB ($20.95)
UTG ($4.45)
UTG+1 ($6.25)
MP1 ($6.90)
MP2 ($3.70)
MP3 ($3.75)
CO ($10.35)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A

, K

.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, 1 fold, MP2 raises to $0.3, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.30, 1 fold, BB calls $0.20, UTG+1 calls $0.20.

Flop: ($1.25) J

, 9

, A

(4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets $0.6, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls $0.60.

Turn: ($2.45) 5

(2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $1, MP2 raises to $2.8, Hero calls $1.80.

River: ($8.05) 2

(2 players)

Final Pot: $8.05

benny999

05-22-2006, 05:59 AM

#10 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 1,567

In the first one, AA, I agree with Andy...push pre flop. Don't worry about giving them too much info on your hand, many will call anyway, and if not you win 50bbs. On the K K J flop you are probably beat, but if you are ahead more than 1/3 of the time you have a EV+ play. He could have a lower two pair enough given many KKKs would check/raise, so I would push that flop too.

Similar logic on the 2nd hand, KK. Pot odds are worse, but does he really overbet the pot with two pair/set? Tough one, fold/call are prob close to 0 EV.

In the 3rd, QQ, pot odds are so high given you have almost nothing left after the min raise. I agree with andy, check the turn, consider folding on a river bet. A 1/3 pot turn bet is pointless after the draw completes and you have position.

In this one, AK, IMO is the clearest of any to fold. He check/ 3x-raised you on a totally uncoordinated turn. Unless he's a maniac, fold.

These hands show why reads are so important. Write notes after every showdown possible on how they bet - they will always be there after they leave if you play them again...and/or get poker tracker/pokerace HUD. WIthout reads, these marginal spots will cost a lot.

givememyleg

05-22-2006, 07:53 AM

#11 (permalink)

WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
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1 - Why are you getting cute preflop and flat calling? I push preflop. I also push that flop.
2 - I push the flop again. This is read dependent here....
3 - I'm checking behind that turn.. Don't bet esspecially if you don't plan on calling a raise.
4 - Probably re-raising preflop and definitely betting more than half the pot on the flop. As played I call the turn.

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givememyleg

05-22-2006, 07:54 AM

#12 (permalink)

WHO YA GONNA CALL?!??
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Quote:

Originally Posted by benny999

In this one, AK, IMO is the clearest of any to fold. He check/ 3x-raised you on a totally uncoordinated turn. Unless he's a maniac, fold.

Against a short stack I'm never folding AK there.

badandy519

05-22-2006, 08:26 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Location: mckinney, tx

Posts: 223

Quote:

Originally Posted by givememyleg

Definitely re-raising preflop and definitely betting more than half the pot on the flop. As played I call the turn.

I think I'm RARELY (like next to never) folding TPTK for 35ish BB in a raised pot.

andy-akb

05-22-2006, 12:38 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Maine

Posts: 1,836

Quote:

Originally Posted by RevolverX

Too often they have you beat? How do you know that when you never call in spots like this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RevolverX

So when I'm against situations like this and it's coming from a guy who is relatively new to the table and I can't get an accurate read on how he plays, I tend to just give them the benefit of the doubt that they indeed do have a better hand then me, especially when my hand is only TPTK.

If you want to make money at the micro stakes you simply cannot give your opponents the benefit of the doubt and assume they are a thinking player, the vast majority of the time that isnt going to be true.

benny999

05-22-2006, 07:09 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jun 2005

Posts: 1,567

Quote:

Originally Posted by givememyleg

Quote:

Originally Posted by benny999

In this one, AK, IMO is the clearest of any to fold. He check/ 3x-raised you on a totally uncoordinated turn. Unless he's a maniac, fold.

Against a short stack I'm never folding AK there.

My bad, didn't even check the stack sizes! Yea- vs a 38bb stack, call or prob reraise pre flop, then bet > 1/2 pot or even push the flop, depending what you think gets called more (sometimes a push = bluff...)

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