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Nut flush antics

  
 
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SonOfAkira
Old 02-03-2006, 03:12 PM     Post subject: Nut flush antics #1 (permalink)  
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SonOfAkira
I can't find the actual hand history, or perhaps am too lazy to search, so don't worry if this annoys you and you don't feel like reading or commenting, my feelings won't be hurt.
But, a .50/1.00NL hand from last night:

I am on the button with Ah 10h.
Two limpers, I limp.
SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: 2h 7h Jd

(prospects...)

Checked to me.
(Thoughts on betting at this flop?)
I check.

Turn: 9h
Board: 2h 7h Jd 9h

BB checks.
First villain bets $8 !?!
2nd calls !?!

(Dramatic foreshadowing #1:
I say to my roommate, who is not a poker player, but is a math teacher and can appreciate the finer points of the game, "I think I'm gonna stack one player, if not more, with this hand and then call it a night so you can use the computer...")

I call, BB folds.

River: Jh
Board: 2h 7h Jd 9h Jh

1st villain checks, 2nd checks.

(Dramatic foreshadowing #2:
I say to my roommate, "Damn, I don't think i'm gonna stack anybody. See, that fourth heart hurt me, now the player with the weak hand KNOWS somebody has a flush, and the player with the low suited cards knows his flush isn't so strong anymore, i'll throw out a small bet to get a little bit more value...)

I bet $8.
First villain calls, second folds...

Results: ???

I have a good idea of what I botched and why, where I missed value and the like, and am curious as to whether others agree. For starters, raising the turn seemed appropriate, immediately in hindsight. This hand, though, was very strange to me because of the horrible/weird way it was played by all players involved. All feedback is appreciated, hammer me for missing a prime opportunity, for being lustful and greedy and overconfident (I've been recently spoiled with three hands, flopping the nut flush, and having a player bet his whole stack off right into me, one on a bluff, and two on a K-high flush) or whatever you feel is appropriate.
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finky
Old 02-03-2006, 04:48 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Usually I'd raise the flop, take it down or juce it if I hit. Raising the turn is also a good idea as again it builds a pot and gets money in before any scare cards come, the board pairing could beat you or another heart could kill your action, thats 15 cards in total.

The river is a probably the worst card to come, it will be hard to stack any baby flushes and there is the possibility of a slowplayed set or 2 pair filling up. As played I like the value bet.
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SonOfAkira
Old 02-03-2006, 06:14 PM #3 (permalink)  
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SonOfAkira
Quote:
Originally Posted by finky
Usually I'd raise the flop, take it down or juce it if I hit. Raising the turn is also a good idea as again it builds a pot and gets money in before any scare cards come, the board pairing could beat you or another heart could kill your action, thats 15 cards in total.

The river is a probably the worst card to come, it will be hard to stack any baby flushes and there is the possibility of a slowplayed set or 2 pair filling up. As played I like the value bet.
Too true.
Like I said, I had been temporarily spoiled, with the last three nut-flush flops/turns being paid off with a stack. And the action that came WHEN the three-flush hit made me think it would happen again, x2 perhaps.
Your first paragraph makes so much sense in hindsight, and is exactly what I knew I did poorly ten seconds after the hand ended. Exactly the opposite of how I would normally play it.
But at the time.
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STIdrivr
Old 02-03-2006, 06:29 PM #4 (permalink)  
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i would raise the turn expecially cause there are 2 people in and they both are in for a big bet. And also i raise the flop sometimes in position.
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SonOfAkira
Old 02-03-2006, 08:06 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STIdrivr
i would raise the turn expecially cause there are 2 people in and they both are in for a big bet. And also i raise the flop sometimes in position.
So far, 2 for 2 agreeing with my hindsight and normal TAG thinking. The result is most bizarre, though at the same time not surprising at all. It's what I really want to discuss. I guess if no one shows any interest i'll just post the result and go from there. Though i'm sure we can guess what happened, no?
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nutsinho
Old 02-03-2006, 08:19 PM #6 (permalink)  
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 I never raise that turn. 2/3 of the time the river is a blank and I make a shitload. Don't get discouraged just because a bad card falls once.
My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
 
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renegaderob1
Old 02-04-2006, 06:16 AM #7 (permalink)  
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renegaderob1
I would probably raise everything except the river...
Roll Rebuilding (for the second time). Current; $1600 from $300 (previous, $2300 from $15)
 
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finky
Old 02-04-2006, 09:01 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nutsinho
I never raise that turn. 2/3 of the time the river is a blank and I make a shitload. Don't get discouraged just because a bad card falls once.
Isn't it beter to make money 3/3rds of the time? By this logic you should check TPTK till the river on a 2 flush board as you are good 2/3rds of the time.

Also what hands would call a push on a blank river that would fold to a raise on the turn?

Even if you min raise you give good odds to call with pretty much anything and have almost doubled the size of the pot making it harder for players to fold.
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SonOfAkira
Old 02-04-2006, 11:55 AM #9 (permalink)  
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SonOfAkira
Well, the result: Villain turns over 77 for the boat.
I was too upset about the fourth heart killing my action, that I failed to notice the board pairing up presented an even bigger problem. I still don't mind the value bet, and am glad the pot was small, all the chips were going in if villain lead out a healthy amount on the river.
But here's the whole point of why I posted this hand, what was so strange and of note. Notice that villain, with a two flush on the flop, checked everybody a free card. I understand this play, though not my personal favourite, whereas if a bet was made he'd come back over the top, and if the turn was a blank then he'd pick things up. A bit of counterplay. However when the third hearts hits, then he starts betting.
It's easy to be results oriented and say villain really pulled a nice move and tricked me, but this play seems suicidal with a flopped set. Since I didn't read him as a terrible player, it's so bizarre that I am willing to believe the flop check was a mis-click and possibly even the turn-bet.
Personally, I favour speeding things up with a two flush on the flop or even two to a straight, hoping drawers come along with bad odds. That seems standard.
I believe my read was right, and agree with betting on the flop and raising the turn, driving out the set but having the weaker flush come along for the ride. Is this even too results-oriented? I have mixed feelings on the best way to maximze value with flushes.
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finky
Old 02-04-2006, 12:16 PM #10 (permalink)  
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finky
Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfAkira
I believe my read was right, and agree with betting on the flop and raising the turn, driving out the set but having the weaker flush come along for the ride. Is this even too results-oriented? I have mixed feelings on the best way to maximze value with flushes.
I don't think this is results orientated, flushes and sets are never the nuts with more cards to come (as you both found out). The best option is to raise, especially in multiway pots. You don't always want to drive out the sets or 2 pair, just force them into making an error calling.

Free cards = death

Raising = profit
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SonOfAkira
Old 02-04-2006, 01:08 PM #11 (permalink)  
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SonOfAkira
Quote:
Originally Posted by finky
Quote:
Originally Posted by SonOfAkira
I believe my read was right, and agree with betting on the flop and raising the turn, driving out the set but having the weaker flush come along for the ride. Is this even too results-oriented? I have mixed feelings on the best way to maximze value with flushes.
I don't think this is results orientated, flushes and sets are never the nuts with more cards to come (as you both found out). The best option is to raise, especially in multiway pots. You don't always want to drive out the sets or 2 pair, just force them into making an error calling.

Free cards = death

Raising = profit
True. Like I said, the last nut flush I had was a actually flopped, and this fellow bet his whole stack on over the course of the flop an turn with only a pair of sevens. I don't know if this was a bluff, or a donkish play, or what, but I didn't mind. When this hand came up, I thought, oh my, it's gonna happen again, great. Greed and overconfidence preventing from making my standard and correct plays. I see the conept, that my hand is very strong but isn't improving, more cards could only weaken it. Much of this was greed, thinking any move by me might lose money and drive out hands, and the appearance of a donkey calling station would net the most.
Still, what do you make of the villain coming alive WHEN the three-to-a-flush hit? If we're being results-oriented, we could say, wow, what a great way to conceal a hand, repping the flush, but this is not optimal, because this play with a set will get you burned far more often than not.
Believe me, I agree with raise, raise, raise, the most profit i've gained from sets was when all the chips went in on the flop with multiple villains, one chasing a flush draw (not that terrible) and one chasing a gutshot or some other ridiculous draw (insane).
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Miffed22001
Old 02-04-2006, 02:11 PM #12 (permalink)  
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 check the flop.
Sets/two pair bet here.
bet the turn. If its bet raise it.
check behind on the river. Betting there asks for trouble imo.
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