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Les_Worm
Old 04-06-2005, 04:01 PM     Post subject: NL Help #1 (permalink)  
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I've been dabbling in some NL lately, trying to expand my horizons. I need some help with a hand I played last night.

25NL Full Ring

I'm in CO with JJ w/ no reads on anyone. 2 limpers.

I raise to $1.5 (6xBB) Good Amount?

The small blind calls and so does UTG.

Flop: 9-3-5 rainbow.
Checks to me, I bet $3
SB calls, UTG raises to $6

Now this was where I was unsure about what to do. I had no read, I thought maybe he may have like A-9 or 9-10s but really I don't have a clue.

I'd like to hear what some of you would do in this situation before I let you know what I did. Also if you call or raise what line to you take on the turn if you are unimproved and are faced with another pot size bet?
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ensign_lee
Old 04-06-2005, 04:28 PM #2 (permalink)  
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At 25 NL ring?
He's got 9x
Call and extract money out of him bit by bit.
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ilikeaces86
Old 04-06-2005, 04:29 PM #3 (permalink)  
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 or 99 or 55 or 33.
 
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Element187
Old 04-06-2005, 04:30 PM #4 (permalink)  
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i was going to reply to the post, but i ended up staring at your avatar for a few moments.. what was the question again?
"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls
 
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ilikeaces86
Old 04-06-2005, 04:32 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element187
i was going to reply to the post, but i ended up staring at your avatar for a few moments.. what was the question again?
Now thats post whoring.
 
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Les_Worm
Old 04-06-2005, 04:39 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
or 99 or 55 or 33.
If that is what you put him on what do you do then? Your obviously way behind, you just fold there?
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ilikeaces86
Old 04-06-2005, 04:41 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 fold

Find a better spot to get your money in.

edit: Im not saying its the fun thing to do but winning isn't always fun.
 
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Legendash
Old 04-06-2005, 05:01 PM #8 (permalink)  
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I don't think someone would raise with 9x apart from A9, i think i'd call the $3 and get prepared to lay it down on the turn depending on how he bets. Not much re raising goes on at $25NL in my experience
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Les_Worm
Old 04-06-2005, 05:03 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
fold

Find a better spot to get your money in.

edit: Im not saying its the fun thing to do but winning isn't always fun.
I agree. I'm not trying to do the 'fun' things, I'm trying to make the correct plays to win. All I need is a little guidance. I'm just not used to this monster that is NL.

Anyone else care to comment on the hand?
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Element187
Old 04-06-2005, 05:24 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Element187
i was going to reply to the post, but i ended up staring at your avatar for a few moments.. what was the question again?
Now thats post whoring.
fear it.



back to the original post .. i would reraise him to see how much he really likes his hand. its only another 3$ .. if he just calls, he might not like it too much, see what he decides to do on the turn.



i like aces is probably right, but most people with only TPTK will assume they have the best hand... and at 25NL the majority of the players never get the idea in their heads an overpair might exist.
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Les_Worm
Old 04-06-2005, 06:09 PM #11 (permalink)  
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I didn't put him on a set and I overplayed my JJ. I pushed all in to get rid of the SB and possibly take down the pot right there. He calls immediately and shows his set (33). I got a J on the turn and won a pretty nice pot so I got lucky. I need to be careful I don't overplay my hands like that. I made the wrong play, I just was curious as to how I should have played it.
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ilikeaces86
Old 04-06-2005, 06:31 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_worm
I didn't put him on a set and I overplayed my JJ. I pushed all in to get rid of the SB and possibly take down the pot right there. He calls immediately and shows his set (33). I got a J on the turn and won a pretty nice pot so I got lucky. I need to be careful I don't overplay my hands like that. I made the wrong play, I just was curious as to how I should have played it.
Am I psychic or what?
 
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Zangief
Old 04-06-2005, 06:44 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_worm
I didn't put him on a set and I overplayed my JJ. I pushed all in to get rid of the SB and possibly take down the pot right there. He calls immediately and shows his set (33). I got a J on the turn and won a pretty nice pot so I got lucky. I need to be careful I don't overplay my hands like that. I made the wrong play, I just was curious as to how I should have played it.
Am I psychic or what?
Can you explain your reasoning, aces? I can't tell if you figured a set from the play of the hand or worm's description of it.

What if worm had AA instead of JJ? Same decision?

It seems kind of weak to fold to a minraise. What happens when everyone starts minraising all your flop bets?

I think I would reraise to $12 or $15 and see how the opponent reacted.
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Element187
Old 04-06-2005, 08:37 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zangief
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_worm
I didn't put him on a set and I overplayed my JJ. I pushed all in to get rid of the SB and possibly take down the pot right there. He calls immediately and shows his set (33). I got a J on the turn and won a pretty nice pot so I got lucky. I need to be careful I don't overplay my hands like that. I made the wrong play, I just was curious as to how I should have played it.
Am I psychic or what?
Can you explain your reasoning, aces? I can't tell if you figured a set from the play of the hand or worm's description of it.

What if worm had AA instead of JJ? Same decision?

It seems kind of weak to fold to a minraise. What happens when everyone starts minraising all your flop bets?

I think I would reraise to $12 or $15 and see how the opponent reacted.
i agree, why not get some more information before releasing the hand.
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storm75m
Old 04-06-2005, 08:59 PM #15 (permalink)  
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 I wouldn't fold right there either... I would call, then throw another $3 bet at him on the turn, and find out how much he really likes his hand. Another re-raise, he probably has you beat, a call, and I put him on A9. (But by the turn you made your set anyway) If you didn't make your set, I would've checked the river to him, and depending on the size of his bet, call or fold.
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ensign_lee
Old 04-06-2005, 09:51 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Well, I guess that's my fault for not giving anyone at $25 NL any credit. Higher limits, I do reraise to see where I'm at.
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AvatarKava
Old 04-07-2005, 05:27 AM #17 (permalink)  
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I like the immediate reraise over the second option: call and lead out on the turn - you're showing clear strength this way and will get more information for your money about the strength of your hand.
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lolzzz_321
Old 04-07-2005, 06:58 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Nice catch sir...

Smells like two pur or a set here. Possibly a higher overpair...
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Demiparadigm
Old 04-07-2005, 09:39 AM #19 (permalink)  
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This was a check raise.
Did everyone miss that?
players don't normally check raise with a weak top pair. A9 or a higher pair is possible, but I think a set is the most probable given the preflop action and that flop.

Now, that being said, I don't think a call is entirely wrong. the chances that you are up against a bluff or A9 make it a marginal call. A reraise is, in my opinion completely wrong. Only a better hand will call your all in.

If it were A9 or a bluff, he would probably slow down on the turn, since your call shows strength (although many players call with AK here, which I think is completely wrong. AK is way behind any reasonable holding, and DOMINATED by A9.)

This is one of the few instances where I think calling is better than raising, with folding being the best option.

Like Aces said, wait for a better chance to get your money in.
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
 
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Legendash
Old 04-07-2005, 09:58 AM #20 (permalink)  
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Lets be realistic here, you were never ever going to fold JJ to a $3 bet with a raggy board, no way. I would just say respect re-raises at 25NL, they are rare without the goods.
"[This theory] is only useful for helping to calculate your luck odds. If you have a good read that you have a numerical advantage against your opponent, that your hand is "luckier"..."

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Les_Worm
Old 04-07-2005, 03:36 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Ok, so I can't call and lead out because I have position and am not first to act. I do see why folding is a good options and calling/folding on turn isn't that bad either. While playing last night I was able to get away from hands like this and made $70. I'm beginning to see the importance of laying hands like this down and how much money it can save me.
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lolzzz_321
Old 04-07-2005, 05:15 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_worm
Ok, so I can't call and lead out because I have position and am not first to act. I do see why folding is a good options and calling/folding on turn isn't that bad either. While playing last night I was able to get away from hands like this and made $70. I'm beginning to see the importance of laying hands like this down and how much money it can save me.


G00T!
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ilikeaces86
Old 04-07-2005, 05:16 PM #23 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_worm
Ok, so I can't call and lead out because I have position and am not first to act. I do see why folding is a good options and calling/folding on turn isn't that bad either. While playing last night I was able to get away from hands like this and made $70. I'm beginning to see the importance of laying hands like this down and how much money it can save me.
 
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Les_Worm
Old 04-07-2005, 06:22 PM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_worm
Ok, so I can't call and lead out because I have position and am not first to act. I do see why folding is a good options and calling/folding on turn isn't that bad either. While playing last night I was able to get away from hands like this and made $70. I'm beginning to see the importance of laying hands like this down and how much money it can save me.
Quoted for?
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Les_Worm
Old 04-08-2005, 03:37 PM #25 (permalink)  
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My newest lesson I've learned:

When I have QQ and someone make a big reraise preflop, they don't have AKs or JJ, lay those queens the fuck down!
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Element187
Old 04-08-2005, 04:07 PM #26 (permalink)  
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with QQ it depends, if that same player is doing stupid things like going all in with AJ, playing junk like KTo, i'll set him all in preflop.


ya generally AA and KK is the only hands i dont lay down preflop.
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ilikeaces86
Old 04-08-2005, 04:21 PM #27 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Element187
ya generally AA and KK is the only hands i dont lay down preflop.
Ya QQ is usally a coinflip if you get it all in preflop at best.
 
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Element187
Old 04-08-2005, 04:29 PM #28 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Element187
ya generally AA and KK is the only hands i dont lay down preflop.
Ya QQ is usally a coinflip if you get it all in preflop at best.
ya but a hot headed idiot thats raising with complete junk all the time, im going to put my chips in the middle with it and put the decision on him.
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Les_Worm
Old 04-08-2005, 05:15 PM #29 (permalink)  
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He didn't just raise, he reraised my raise (essentially putting me all in) and I made a stupid call. I could have gotten away from the hand for only $2.
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Element187
Old 04-08-2005, 05:43 PM #30 (permalink)  
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what was the size of your stack before the hand?
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Les_Worm
Old 04-09-2005, 02:01 PM #31 (permalink)  
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about $12ish, It was like another $9 back to me.
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Les_Worm
Old 04-09-2005, 03:45 PM #32 (permalink)  
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Answer me this......Why can't I lay down Aces???? Damn!
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dsaxton
Old 04-09-2005, 05:40 PM #33 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
or 99 or 55 or 33.
I doubt it. Players at these limits almost always slow-play sets, oftentimes all the way to the river. He probably would've just called with any hand that has J-J beaten, so I'd considering moving all-in. This way you force him to either fold his 5-outter or make a bad call with the worst hand.
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Old 04-09-2005, 06:09 PM #34 (permalink)  
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Nobody lays down aces for any reason unless there are 4 to a flush on the board. AA on a KJ9 flop facing a big reraise is one of the toughest laydowns I can think of.

Lay down your queens to a significant reraise. To a weak reraise, see the flop and lay it down if there are overs. Hands that beat you are AA/KK, AK/AKs with a slight advantage. Against a loose player, however, they might reraise with JJ/TT, so I'd call the crazies down on this one.
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Les_Worm
Old 04-09-2005, 06:21 PM #35 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsaxton
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikeaces86
or 99 or 55 or 33.
I doubt it. Players at these limits almost always slow-play sets, oftentimes all the way to the river. He probably would've just called with any hand that has J-J beaten, so I'd considering moving all-in. This way you force him to either fold his 5-outter or make a bad call with the worst hand.
He did have 33, as I mentioned earlier up in the post.
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Les_Worm
Old 04-09-2005, 06:22 PM #36 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aleksandr
Nobody lays down aces for any reason unless there are 4 to a flush on the board. AA on a KJ9 flop facing a big reraise is one of the toughest laydowns I can think of.

Lay down your queens to a significant reraise. To a weak reraise, see the flop and lay it down if there are overs. Hands that beat you are AA/KK, AK/AKs with a slight advantage. Against a loose player, however, they might reraise with JJ/TT, so I'd call the crazies down on this one.
The flop was 8 high and I had AA and called someone's all in, it was stupid. He had 88. I might be reading your post wrong but are you saying that QQ is a dog to AK(s)?
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dsaxton
Old 04-09-2005, 08:24 PM #37 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_worm
He did have 33, as I mentioned earlier up in the post.
I didn't see that part, but I still think it's unlikely for him to be holding 3-3 given the information available at the time of the flop.
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Les_Worm
Old 04-13-2005, 11:47 PM #38 (permalink)  
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Ok, Phuck people that min raise from UTG+1 with AA.
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Old 04-13-2005, 11:58 PM #39 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les_worm
Ok, Phuck people that min raise from UTG+1 with AA.
Word, we should write a 25NL strategy guide...
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