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My biggest leak, bigbet preflop poker. 3 hands.

  
 
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Miffed22001
Old 08-24-2006, 08:31 PM     Post subject: My biggest leak, bigbet preflop poker. 3 hands. #1 (permalink)  
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 Hand1
Button is unknown.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($200)
Button ($185)
SB ($76.54)
Hero ($200)
UTG ($299.34)
MP ($165.32)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, A. SB posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, MP raises to $6, CO calls $6, Button calls $6, 1 fold, Hero raises to $45, MP folds, CO folds, Button calls $39.

Flop: ($105) 2, 6, 4 (2 players)
Hero calls $153 (All-In), Button calls $140 (All-In).

Turn: ($398) 6 (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($398) 4 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $398

Hand2.
Villain is a fish, pure and simple.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

CO ($420)
Button ($240)
SB ($200.52)
Hero ($187)
UTG ($65.43)
MP ($175.65)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, Q. SB posts a blind of $1.
2 folds, CO raises to $6, Button calls $6, SB (poster) calls $6, Hero raises to $45, CO calls $414 (All-In), Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls $140 (All-In).

Flop: ($620) 7, T, 5 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($620) A (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($620) 3 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: $620

Hand3.
Villain is getting some stick for being a chaser, he just got stacked by me at another table chasing his flush draw. He basically sucks hard.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Hero ($238.65)
SB ($98)
BB ($120.34)
UTG ($200)
MP ($198.56)
CO ($298)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K, K. SB posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, MP raises to $6, CO calls $6, Hero raises to $38, 2 folds, MP calls $32, CO calls $32.

Flop: ($117) 4, 6, Q (3 players)
MP checks, CO checks, Hero bets $90, MP calls $160.56 (All-In), CO folds, Hero calls $70.56.

Turn: ($478.21) Q (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($478.21) 8 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $478.21
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Renton
Old 08-24-2006, 08:56 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 Hand 1: A raise to 30 preflop is sufficient. Then you can bet/fold the flop (or even check/fold against some players)

Hand 2: A raise to 30 preflop is sufficient. Then you can fold.

Hand 3: A raise to 30 preflop is sufficient. Postflop is standard.
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freechus9
Old 08-24-2006, 10:41 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Yea I don't know why you're raising so much PF. But I bet you have a good reason.
My sig is too much for you to handle.
 
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Miffed22001
Old 08-24-2006, 11:54 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freechus9
Yea I don't know why you're raising so much PF. But I bet you have a good reason.
table was playing fishy, i was doing a lot of reraising becuase people were 3bbs raising a lot of shit and i felt if i put a lot in the middle preflop my opponents had to make the tough calls when i just dumped my stack in the middle.
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Miffed22001
Old 08-24-2006, 11:56 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 its actually surprising that at a 50nl or 100nl table, the hands that my opponents showed down would have been mucked either preflop or on the flop vs my action a lot. It seems either i picked a good table (calling stations) or else 200nl players want to gambOOl a little more.
i dont know, ive only played 22k hands at these stakes and the players are really donktastic
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samsonite2100
Old 08-25-2006, 02:19 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Miffed, I understand what you mean about trying to get more $ in w/ good hands versus calling stations, but I think there are a couple of problems w/ it. For one thing, raising so huge PF swells the pot to sizes that interfere with post-flop play. Hand one is an example--you're basically forced to push since any normal cbet will leave you pot-committed. Raise to $30 PF and the hands play out entirely differently.

Hand 2--i don't mind the call against a fish.

Hand 3--standard
 
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Miffed22001
Old 08-25-2006, 02:33 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonite2100
Miffed, I understand what you mean about trying to get more $ in w/ good hands versus calling stations, but I think there are a couple of problems w/ it. For one thing, raising so huge PF swells the pot to sizes that interfere with post-flop play. Hand one is an example--you're basically forced to push since any normal cbet will leave you pot-committed. Raise to $30 PF and the hands play out entirely differently.

Hand 2--i don't mind the call against a fish.

Hand 3--standard
two things bother me.
1. When any player, especially someone who (at this table anyway) is playing a 17/8 6max game, puts that much money in the pot preflop it says a lot. It says 'push or fold' you have no odds and my hand is a monster.
While im aggressive and will bluff post-flop, i find preflop plays itself an awful lot. I dont put large portions of my stack in the pot without good reason. in other words i dont reraise over a raisor and two callers without the goods in hand, thats not good poker imo. I create my action by playing small ball elsewhere.
2. I hate playing QQ multiway. Also, i hate calling with it, its weak. Even if i get a good flop and go for a lead or check/raise too many players want to see another card simply becuase of the way i try to play post flop. I want QQ HU vs an opponent and i want a lot of money in the pot so that i can check/fold a rotten flop or bet into and be commited to a low one i like.

I see the big preflop raise arguement, the only point id make is that if i bet 30 in both these pots preflop and c-bet a flop im comited ayway so the $8 isnt making much difference.

For example, in hand1 how can a player call behind a raisor and a caller and then call a reraise cold? Thats bad play if you consider what you expect my range to be there.
hand2 is a read, pure and simple. If opp had opened for 4bbs and pushed here id have folded, as it was i smelt something was up.
hand3, so long as opp doesnt have AA here, he made a mistake calling preflop with no implied odds vs my expected range and no guarentee that the caller of the original raise would come along too.
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samsonite2100
Old 08-25-2006, 03:27 AM #8 (permalink)  
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In hand one, if you'd raised $30, the pot on the flop is around $75 and you can cbet 2/3 and have half a stack left when he pushes. That's a spot you can get away from, I believe.
 
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arkana
Old 08-25-2006, 08:03 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Raising so much is so bad against any but the worst of calling stations and then I still wouldnt do it with AK.
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Miffed22001
Old 08-25-2006, 01:10 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkana
Raising so much is so bad against any but the worst of calling stations and then I still wouldnt do it with AK.
70% the time i just muck AK here because it isnt worth my time even bothering to take a multiway flop oop with a one pair hand.
So yeah i tend to agree, just that for once i decided that my hand was best and i was taking down the pot.
This was a single play in isolation, when i do this normally my range is literally QQ+ which says a lot if the original raisor folds to my reraise and someone then goes ahead and calls the reraise after cold calling behind a raisor and caller. I know what he had here, i could almost put him on his cards so when i played my hand like this i expected him to fold because guess what, his hand is no good at least 80% if not 90% the time vs my range here anyway, never mind he didnt get his implied odds for a set.

Beyond that, with the way i played the hand opp played this horribly imo. If i changed the hand history to show i had AA in hand1 would it have been such a horrible play? I think not.

Hand1 opp shows a pair of tens. bad call, bad play. Forget for a moment i had AK, if id done this with my normal range of QQ+ this hand is oh so standard. meh.
Hand2. I was right opp had AK and my call was good preflop, postflop was rapage.
hand3 opp shows 44 for a set. Nice implied odds sir, he never wins from this play becuase of my preflop play imo.

feel free to disagree with me, i want opinions on this because when im getting stacked nowadays its like this.
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samsonite2100
Old 08-25-2006, 02:26 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Hand1 opp shows a pair of tens. bad call, bad play. Forget for a moment i had AK, if id done this with my normal range of QQ+ this hand is oh so standard. meh.
Yeah, but weren't you saying something about these guys being idiot calling stations?
 
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Miffed22001
Old 08-25-2006, 02:37 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonite2100
Quote:
Hand1 opp shows a pair of tens. bad call, bad play. Forget for a moment i had AK, if id done this with my normal range of QQ+ this hand is oh so standard. meh.
Yeah, but weren't you saying something about these guys being idiot calling stations?
table was fishy, i didnt expect to get called when i did that because i was repping one hand really.
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benny999
Old 08-25-2006, 07:37 PM #13 (permalink)  
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IMO these guys aren't thinking "this person only reraises QQ+ in this situation." they think "he's making a move with high cards [or 22-QQ if they have AK], lets see a flop" - especially when you reraise big like that.

That makes the logic of "90% of the time this is a mistake against me" fail in this situation...the only situation I think that logic applies in is against thinking opps who have played you enough.

That's why reraising big with exclusively QQ+ (although QQ will be high variance if they keep pushing AK) works out really good in these spots, since the bad beat 44 hands will get more then evened out.
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KoRnholio
Old 08-25-2006, 10:00 PM #14 (permalink)  
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 I really dislike hand 1, the other two look fine.

In hand one, what kind of hand do you expect this guy to bet/call a massive reraise preflop with? Probably something like 99+ and AK. There's no need to overbet all in on that flop where any pocket pair he could realistically have will probably call.

Plus.. Would you really massively overbet all in on that rag flop if you had aces? I think in both cases (where you have AK or AA), you're better off putting in a 1/2-2/3 pot bet on such a board. At least that way you save a good chunk of your stack when you have AK and are up against a pair.
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
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Miffed22001
Old 08-25-2006, 11:12 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Plus.. Would you really massively overbet all in on that rag flop if you had aces?
In short: yes.

Quote:
In hand one, what kind of hand do you expect this guy to bet/call a massive reraise preflop with? Probably something like 99+ and AK
For a moment forget i hold AK. Is calling with 99+ or AK here not a bad play?
Everyone has been very results orientated abou this play becuase i pushed all in on the flop. As i said above, if id done this with AA/KK and got called would we be having this discussion?
Does my opponent not make a fairly big mistake preflop calling here? Sure, if 99+ sets up i get stacked, but then if opp calls here hes making a -ev play anyway if im expected to have AA/KK/QQ 90% the time here. (forget cards look at my line/action/17/8 stats)
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benny999
Old 08-26-2006, 01:30 AM #16 (permalink)  
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I don't think anyone is results-oriented...the point is you get payed with AA/KK/QQ and stacked with AK in that situation.
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samsonite2100
Old 08-26-2006, 01:37 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
Plus.. Would you really massively overbet all in on that rag flop if you had aces?
In short: yes.

Quote:
In hand one, what kind of hand do you expect this guy to bet/call a massive reraise preflop with? Probably something like 99+ and AK
For a moment forget i hold AK. Is calling with 99+ or AK here not a bad play?
Everyone has been very results orientated abou this play becuase i pushed all in on the flop. As i said above, if id done this with AA/KK and got called would we be having this discussion?
Does my opponent not make a fairly big mistake preflop calling here? Sure, if 99+ sets up i get stacked, but then if opp calls here hes making a -ev play anyway if im expected to have AA/KK/QQ 90% the time here. (forget cards look at my line/action/17/8 stats)
Of course it's a bad play by opponent, but the problem is you already identified villain(s) as shitty calling station fish, which is ostensibly why you're making the huge PF raise, right? Then, you defend your play by saying, "well, forget I had AK, it's a bad call by him." But you knew he was the type of bad player capable of making a -EV call like that--again, that's why you're raising these ludicrous amounts PF.

You can't have it both ways--if you're extracting value with good hands PF by making massive raises against players who will call w/ marginal hands and no implied odds, you have to face those same players post-flop and you pushed an unmade hand into exactly the kind of player that will call with 99.
 
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Beck
Old 08-26-2006, 01:51 AM #18 (permalink)  
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samsonite, very well said. I am gonna remmember that for my own game when I try and make a move on a fish
-Beck
 
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Miffed22001
Old 08-26-2006, 02:06 AM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsonite2100
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
Quote:
Plus.. Would you really massively overbet all in on that rag flop if you had aces?
In short: yes.

Quote:
In hand one, what kind of hand do you expect this guy to bet/call a massive reraise preflop with? Probably something like 99+ and AK
For a moment forget i hold AK. Is calling with 99+ or AK here not a bad play?
Everyone has been very results orientated abou this play becuase i pushed all in on the flop. As i said above, if id done this with AA/KK and got called would we be having this discussion?
Does my opponent not make a fairly big mistake preflop calling here? Sure, if 99+ sets up i get stacked, but then if opp calls here hes making a -ev play anyway if im expected to have AA/KK/QQ 90% the time here. (forget cards look at my line/action/17/8 stats)
Of course it's a bad play by opponent, but the problem is you already identified villain(s) as shitty calling station fish, which is ostensibly why you're making the huge PF raise, right? Then, you defend your play by saying, "well, forget I had AK, it's a bad call by him." But you knew he was the type of bad player capable of making a -EV call like that--again, that's why you're raising these ludicrous amounts PF.

You can't have it both ways--if you're extracting value with good hands PF by making massive raises against players who will call w/ marginal hands and no implied odds, you have to face those same players post-flop and you pushed an unmade hand into exactly the kind of player that will call with 99.
Fair point. The table was fishy, i just expected that when i came in big preflop at 200nl i wouldnt have to watch TT make the juicest of calls.
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