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The more I think about this....

  
 
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cardsman1992
Old 05-21-2007, 10:35 PM     Post subject: The more I think about this.... #1 (permalink)  
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the more I think I can fold it. Large stack is 18/6/2 over 425 hands and I don't recall him really ever getting out of line. No reads on shorty but he doesn't matter in the scheme of things. This isn't your normal "Can I fold KK preflop?" question--I would rarely advocate that. This may require a little more thought due to stack size (146 BB effective), and preflop action. I told myself, "this has got to be AA". I sent this in a session review to another person and they more or less said this was fine, but I'm not so sure....

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

SB ($69.25)
BB ($121.35)
UTG ($39)
UTG+1 ($108.15)
MP1 ($18.05)
MP2 ($39)
MP3 ($45.50)
Hero ($146)
Button ($171.20)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K, K. UTG posts a blind of $1.
UTG+1 calls $1, 3 folds, Hero raises to $5, Button calls $5, 1 fold, UTG (poster) raises to $16, 1 fold, Hero raises to $55, Button raises to $176.2 (All-In), UTG calls $24 (All-In), Hero ????????

Calls with fist pumping action? Makes a disciplined fold that may or may not be wrong?
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zook
Old 05-21-2007, 11:22 PM #2 (permalink)  
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To me, a cold call pre-flop followed by a push once there's a lot of money in the pot looks more like AK than AA. Or he thinks you're trying to isolate the shorty and he's trying to out-isolate him. But that's probably thinking way too deep for this guy.

I call without second thought.
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Miffed22001
Old 05-22-2007, 02:52 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 call. This cant be AA unless hes awful.
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weezie
Old 05-22-2007, 05:13 AM #4 (permalink)  
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someone did this same thing to me with AA
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cardsman1992
Old 05-22-2007, 02:24 PM #5 (permalink)  
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I stoved this giving shorty a wide range and nit QQ+/AK, and it still showed me at over 50%. Taking QQ out only dropped that a couple percentage points, so I guess I still have to call, except that I was certain it was AA....
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bigspenda73
Old 05-22-2007, 02:38 PM #6 (permalink)  
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bigspenda73 will become famous soon enoughbigspenda73 will become famous soon enough
 How can you fold with all that money out there? You getting 2.5:1 on your money with KK. UTG's range is huge which you're killing and AK/QQ make up just as much of his range as AA if not a lot more.
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cardsman1992
Old 05-22-2007, 02:44 PM #7 (permalink)  
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This guy is a huge nit and I was more or less convinced this was AA.

I don't think QQ or anything less makes up any of his range here actually. I think his range here is AA/KK/AK and that's about it.

I actually considered the fold but called because of the money already in and the tiny chance I was ahead of AK here.
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Miffed22001
Old 05-22-2007, 02:46 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 stop trying to talk yourself into oflding KK preflop to odd action. If this had been the standard bet 3bet 4bet type thing then yeah, i could argue getting away at 150~bbs deep, but not THIS way.
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cardsman1992
Old 05-22-2007, 02:54 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miffed22001
stop trying to talk yourself into oflding KK preflop to odd action. If this had been the standard bet 3bet 4bet type thing then yeah, i could argue getting away at 150~bbs deep, but not THIS way.
Doesn't this action look more suspicious than a normal 3bet/4bet? I normally NEVER fold KK preflop, as I said, this spot just had the spidey senses going. A nit trying to trap, then all of the sudden OMG I PUSH!!!

I guess the other part discussion is, at what level do you ever consider this? Usually it's not $100 or below due to the stupid pushes you see, but I would think people are smart enough at higher levels not to push AA preflop, and get value from them other ways? Other posts I have seen say never for 100 BBs--well this is 150 BBs. Only against a nit of all nits--well this guy is a nit. So the end-all be-all is....NEVER, even at $1000 NL, do you fold KK preflop?

I was up against AA (nit) and AK (shorty), FWIW...
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