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Minibet to get cheap turn and river.

  
 
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Iwind
Old 09-23-2005, 05:00 PM     Post subject: Minibet to get cheap turn and river. #1 (permalink)  
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Being first or second on flop with 2-3 more people after me, I've been experimenting a bit with minibetting the flop, that is 1-2BB. Usually when I do this, a few people fold and some call. I only do this when I'm looking for a draw of some sort. Seems to me I get it cheaper when I start the betting and put the price on it myself, I can in a way chose my own pot odds. If everyone checks it's even cheaper of course, but that brings along more people wich I usually don't want, and it also makes the pot for me smaller if I hit on turn or river. I often do the same when I get one low pair and looking for another pair or trips. If I get raised doing this, I just fold. And if everyone folds it's great, that happens fairly often too.

What do you think of this tactic?
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Nugunz
Old 09-23-2005, 05:10 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I like to do this. Gives me proper odds and disguises my hand.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 09-23-2005, 05:11 PM #3 (permalink)  
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It doesn't disguise your hand.

At low limits, bad players typically bet less with weaker hands and more with stronger.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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Old 09-23-2005, 05:14 PM #4 (permalink)  
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I like to bet the pot when I'm on a draw because then when I miss and bet the pot on the turn my opps cry and fold.
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Nugunz
Old 09-23-2005, 05:17 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
It doesn't disguise your hand.

At low limits, bad players typically bet less with weaker hands and more with stronger.

-'rilla

Moreso than check, check, bet big when you hit. Another play I find effective is a min-reraise on the flop, often gives you free cards.
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Old 09-23-2005, 05:19 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by nugen
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
It doesn't disguise your hand.

At low limits, bad players typically bet less with weaker hands and more with stronger.

-'rilla

Moreso than check, check, bet big when you hit.
Check, check, bet pot is the standard line for ANY hand hitting on a later street.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 09-23-2005, 05:23 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
I like to bet the pot when I'm on a draw because then when I miss and bet the pot on the turn my opps cry and fold.
Wow this is another leak. Betting the pot with a draw does two things, disguises your hand and buys you a free card. Declining that free card when you get the chance is bad. If you miss on the river, you can pot it there as a bluff and get the same hands to fold that would have on the turn. However, if you manage to snag your straight/flush on the river the big trapping monster is going to pay you off instead of pushing you out/making you pay on the turn.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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Nugunz
Old 09-23-2005, 05:32 PM #8 (permalink)  
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You have to always be mixing up your play. Min-reraising flop flush draws is a key way to get free cards too.
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Old 09-23-2005, 05:38 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
I like to bet the pot when I'm on a draw because then when I miss and bet the pot on the turn my opps cry and fold.
Wow this is another leak. Betting the pot with a draw does two things, disguises your hand and buys you a free card. Declining that free card when you get the chance is bad. If you miss on the river, you can pot it there as a bluff and get the same hands to fold that would have on the turn. However, if you manage to snag your straight/flush on the river the big trapping monster is going to pay you off instead of pushing you out/making you pay on the turn.

-'rilla
I didn't say I do this in cash games :O
This is how I play draws in SNGs when the blinds get high against tight opponents who want to survive into the money

But betting one-third of the pot doesn't seem bad in cash games because you can bet that amount when:
1. You have two overcards and you raised pre-flop
2. You're on a draw
3. You flopped a full house and want to start building the pot because you know your average player will check to slow-play trips.
4. You flopped a set and want to start building the pot since no pair poses a threat to you
5. You flop a straight and are seeing if anyone(or preferrably everyone) wants to call with their pair when they're drawing almost dead
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a500lbgorilla
Old 09-23-2005, 05:45 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nugen
You have to always be mixing up your play. Min-reraising flop flush draws is a key way to get free cards too.
Minraising is also an excellent setup for a pure bluff.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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a500lbgorilla
Old 09-23-2005, 05:47 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
I like to bet the pot when I'm on a draw because then when I miss and bet the pot on the turn my opps cry and fold.
Wow this is another leak. Betting the pot with a draw does two things, disguises your hand and buys you a free card. Declining that free card when you get the chance is bad. If you miss on the river, you can pot it there as a bluff and get the same hands to fold that would have on the turn. However, if you manage to snag your straight/flush on the river the big trapping monster is going to pay you off instead of pushing you out/making you pay on the turn.

-'rilla
I didn't say I do this in cash games :O
This is how I play draws in SNGs when the blinds get high against tight opponents who want to survive into the money

But betting one-third of the pot doesn't seem bad in cash games because you can bet that amount when:
1. You have two overcards and you raised pre-flop
2. You're on a draw
3. You flopped a full house and want to start building the pot because you know your average player will check to slow-play trips.
4. You flopped a set and want to start building the pot since no pair poses a threat to you
5. You flop a straight and are seeing if anyone(or preferrably everyone) wants to call with their pair when they're drawing almost dead
Then take it to the SnG forum! You have added folding equity which makes a lot of silly cash game plays (where blinds never increase and stacks are always deep) ok.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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Nugunz
Old 09-23-2005, 05:51 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Yeah, I only do this in SnGs...
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Old 09-23-2005, 05:59 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
I like to bet the pot when I'm on a draw because then when I miss and bet the pot on the turn my opps cry and fold.
Wow this is another leak. Betting the pot with a draw does two things, disguises your hand and buys you a free card. Declining that free card when you get the chance is bad. If you miss on the river, you can pot it there as a bluff and get the same hands to fold that would have on the turn. However, if you manage to snag your straight/flush on the river the big trapping monster is going to pay you off instead of pushing you out/making you pay on the turn.

-'rilla
I didn't say I do this in cash games :O
This is how I play draws in SNGs when the blinds get high against tight opponents who want to survive into the money

But betting one-third of the pot doesn't seem bad in cash games because you can bet that amount when:
1. You have two overcards and you raised pre-flop
2. You're on a draw
3. You flopped a full house and want to start building the pot because you know your average player will check to slow-play trips.
4. You flopped a set and want to start building the pot since no pair poses a threat to you
5. You flop a straight and are seeing if anyone(or preferrably everyone) wants to call with their pair when they're drawing almost dead
Then take it to the SnG forum! You have added folding equity which makes a lot of silly cash game plays (where blinds never increase and stacks are always deep) ok.

-'rilla
Nobody ever said this was the RING forum.
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a500lbgorilla
Old 09-23-2005, 06:01 PM #14 (permalink)  
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http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...hp?p=2282#2282

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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a500lbgorilla
Old 09-23-2005, 06:02 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nugen
Yeah, I only do this in SnGs...
min-betting in sngs is bad. Semibluffing the flop and turn hard as a bluff is acceptable in bubble sng play. But minibet is again an easy tell comming from a bad player who is just spewing chips.

Unless you're HU or 3-handed with huge blinds.

-'rilla

Smithers, use the amnesia ray.
You mean the revolver, sir?
Precisely.
 
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Old 09-23-2005, 06:15 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=2282#2282

-'rilla
OH. I thought this was general NL strategies. Xianti proves me wrong again.
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dsaxton
Old 09-23-2005, 06:22 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Minbetting with draws just builds the pot when you're an underdog. If you're playing a drawing hand for value, you generally want to invest the absolute minimum until you make your hand, which is nothing when it's checked to you. If you're going to bet with a draw, make a real bet and hope to win the pot immediately.

This is also a pretty obvious betting pattern that's easy to exploit.
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eFoldem
Old 09-23-2005, 07:25 PM #18 (permalink)  

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I totally agree. It was said "when your first to bid"

And if you dont bid min bid then someone is going to raise you probably more than you want to pay to see the flop!

So I bid min bid some times not all times when I want a cheap card.

Like if I have 10K Diamonds and A4Diamond 3club hits then sometimes I bid half pot, some times full pot, and some times 0.25 cent. (Occassionally check)

If you dont mix it up then when you DO hit and you raise the same amou nt you normally do then everyone knows you hit... !

On a flop like this I AM going to stay in to see the next card, and possibly next 2 cards if cheap enough. So why not have the advantage by raising so that no one knows your on a draw? And if you raise minimum, then they might think you already have AK or something and your just trying to get bets.
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Nugunz
Old 09-23-2005, 07:53 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla
Quote:
Originally Posted by nugen
Yeah, I only do this in SnGs...
min-betting in sngs is bad. Semibluffing the flop and turn hard as a bluff is acceptable in bubble sng play. But minibet is again an easy tell comming from a bad player who is just spewing chips.

Unless you're HU or 3-handed with huge blinds.

-'rilla
Well, I mean that when I do this move, its to give myself proper odds, not to milk the pot. "Min betting" is almost never correct.
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Iwind
Old 09-23-2005, 08:36 PM #20 (permalink)  
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I was talking about ring games, yeah, never done that in a SnG or MTT.
At least from my experience it tends to give me the turn and river cheaper, that's the main reason I do it. Sometimes it makes everyone fold if they don't have anything, wich is good too. And if someone feels he has good enough hand to raise me, he would in many cases made that bet if I had checked anyways.
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Ivory
Old 09-23-2005, 11:24 PM #21 (permalink)  
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i think the problem with betting a draw is if someone was slow playing there hand and you bet they might think either a) your trying to steal (which you are) and b) now they have action and this invites a raise...now your draw isnt so cheap
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Iwind
Old 09-23-2005, 11:29 PM #22 (permalink)  
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That's right, but most people wouldn't slowplay a hand unless they knew it was pretty much unbeatable, would they? I mean, I wouldn't slowplay a set or straight, if I thought someone was looking for a flush draw. And if they really are slowplaying a great hand, say a house, it's better that I fold their re-raise than going to the river, getting my flush and losing lots of cash to the house.
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DaNutsInYoEye
Old 09-24-2005, 12:18 AM #23 (permalink)  
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Betting the minimum on a draw is probably the dumbest thing you can do unless you're playing against total idiots. When you semi-bluff you can potentially accomplish 3 things. You're opponents can fold which ideally is what you want. They can call and you can hit your draw (with more money in the pot and thus more incentive for subsequent calls). A semi-bluff also helps to conceal your hand.

Betting the minimum negates two of those three things. Betting the minimum will hardly make everyone fold. Betting the minimum also does not disguise your hand. If anything it helps give it away. If you min bet, min bet, then suddenly put in a large raise when that 3rd-of-a-suit hits the board how many calls do you think you will get? So basically all you are left with is min betting and hoping to hit your draw which you might as well try to do by checking and saving yourself a bet.


This is how you semi-bluff...

*********** # 143 **************
PokerStars Game #2637532255: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2005/09/22 - 20:30:51
(ET)
Table 'Atria' Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: NutsInYoEye ($111.75 in chips)
Seat 2: Nightanday ($53.55 in chips)
Seat 3: likestowhine ($106.10 in chips)
Seat 4: rhoaen ($98.50 in chips)
Seat 5: pepperpot ($52.90 in chips)
Seat 6: jb truck ($66.15 in chips)
Seat 7: jaddik ($111.05 in chips)
Seat 8: hjohar05 ($124.95 in chips)
Seat 9: moneyjune11 ($25.90 in chips)
Nightanday: posts small blind $0.50
likestowhine: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to NutsInYoEye [9d 8d]
rhoaen: folds
pepperpot: folds
jb truck: calls $1
jaddik: folds
hjohar05: folds
moneyjune11: folds
NutsInYoEye: raises $2 to $3
Nightanday: folds
likestowhine: folds
jb truck: calls $2
*** FLOP *** [5d 4d 9c]
jb truck: checks
NutsInYoEye: bets $5
jb truck: calls $5
*** TURN *** [5d 4d 9c] [Ad]
jb truck: checks
NutsInYoEye: bets $9
jb truck: calls $9
*** RIVER *** [5d 4d 9c Ad] [7c]
jb truck: checks
NutsInYoEye: bets $15
jb truck: raises $15 to $30
NutsInYoEye: calls $15
*** SHOW DOWN ***
jb truck: shows [9s As] (two pair, Aces and Nines)
NutsInYoEye: shows [9d 8d] (a flush, Ace high)
NutsInYoEye collected $92.50 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $95.50 | Rake $3
Board [5d 4d 9c Ad 7c]
Seat 1: NutsInYoEye (button) showed [9d 8d] and won ($92.50) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 2: Nightanday (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: likestowhine (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: rhoaen folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: pepperpot folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: jb truck showed [9s As] and lost with two pair, Aces and Nines
Seat 7: jaddik folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: hjohar05 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: moneyjune11 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Position? yes. Good drawing hand? yes. Hand disguised? yes

(Ignore my inability to put him AI after he re-raised, but that is why you review your HH regularly.)


*********** # 185 **************
PokerStars Game #2637463633: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2005/09/22 - 20:22:23
(ET)
Table 'Betulia' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: mtlion54 ($10.30 in chips)
Seat 2: wera247 ($85.55 in chips)
Seat 3: golfboy483 ($8.30 in chips)
Seat 4: jacobdev ($97 in chips)
Seat 5: Vegas Prince ($53.05 in chips)
Seat 6: BigBeauty11 ($53.30 in chips)
Seat 7: NutsInYoEye ($78.75 in chips)
Seat 9: Chip Tycoon ($171.10 in chips)
BigBeauty11: posts small blind $0.50
NutsInYoEye: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to NutsInYoEye [Kh 5h]
Chip Tycoon: folds
mtlion54: folds
wera247: calls $1
golfboy483: folds
jacobdev: folds
Vegas Prince: folds
BigBeauty11: folds
NutsInYoEye: checks
*** FLOP *** [8h 6c 3h]
NutsInYoEye: bets $3
wera247: calls $3
*** TURN *** [8h 6c 3h] [Qh]
NutsInYoEye: bets $5
wera247: calls $5
*** RIVER *** [8h 6c 3h Qh] [9s]
NutsInYoEye: bets $9
wera247: calls $9
*** SHOW DOWN ***
NutsInYoEye: shows [Kh 5h] (a flush, King high)
wera247: mucks hand
NutsInYoEye collected $34.75 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $36.50 | Rake $1.75
Board [8h 6c 3h Qh 9s]
Seat 1: mtlion54 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: wera247 mucked [7s 7h]
Seat 3: golfboy483 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: jacobdev folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Vegas Prince (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: BigBeauty11 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: NutsInYoEye (big blind) showed [Kh 5h] and won ($34.75) with a flush, King
high
Seat 9: Chip Tycoon folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Here I didn't have position, but we were HU and the board wasn't too scary . If there were multiple people in the pot then you wouldn't want to lead into them all. I wanted to win the pot with my initial bet. Again, if you min bet you will likely be called and thus negate a way for you to win. If I'm called though I have an over and a 4-flush. Betting the flop also disguised my hand. If you saw what he showed down, he obviously didnt give me credit for the flush and again called my bet on the river. If I would have min bet the flop and then suddenly put in a disproportionately larger raise later, I doubt I would've gotten called.
TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
 
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