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sil693
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06-29-2008, 11:02 AM
Post subject: Low - Mid PP's UTG at Full Ring
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 609
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I remember reading somewhere that standard UTG play at full ring NLHE is something along the lines of folding 22-66/77 and raising any larger pocket pairs than that.
This is something I cant get my head around.
When playing low and middle pocket pairs, we are essentially looking to hit a set, which to me, suggests that the majority of the time we are going to play 22 and 99 the same way. Folding to a 3bet PF unless we have implied set odds, and not continuing postflop unless we hit our set.
Why then is folding smaller pocket pairs UTG advocated when we are likely to follow a similar line with them as we are say 88, 99??
I'm sure there's more to this, any ideas guys?? Thanks.
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AJinNorCal
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Berkeley
Posts: 16
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Sorry I'm a little rusty here on the lingo but the idea is that the higher the pocket pair the higher the probability its the best (still) the best hand after the flop. The problem with playing the smaller pocket pairs in early position is that you may waste a lot of blind size calls by people raising behind you.
With all that said, I play all small pocket pairs in any position unless things get out of hand before I act.
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MuddyWicket
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Flush
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK, Brighton
Posts: 368
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larger pairs have showdown value, less over cards to scare you. I don't like raising the smaller ones because I will be cbetting usually always and I feel it turns my hand into a bluff str8 away, others raise all of them but I can't bring myself to do it.
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grnydrowave2
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Showin' mah Pokemans
Posts: 651
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People will say that limp/calling is too transparent, but at 50nl and below, I don't think anyone notices.
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<SrslySirius> Hal Lubarsky, my nemesis.
<SaltLick> are you seriously losing to a blind guy
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Erpel
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 605
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Colour me noob but here's my thoughts.
Play low pocket pairs strictly fit or fold for set value. Check/fold the flop if you miss your set. If (like me) you tend to cbet way too much, this will also reduce your cbet% stat which can be helpful for your image.
Extracting any value from a low pocket pair that has missed the flop is an advanced play and requires good reads to be profitable. If you are not absolutely certain you can play it for a profit in this situation against the current opponent(s) you need to check/fold.
I think when people advocate folding 22-66 PF UTG it's because beginners especially tend to get married to their hand and overplay weak/missed pocket pairs. If you have the discipline to check/fold missed flops it's profitable to play them (assuming proper stack sizes for implied odds on your callers).
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cardsman1992
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397
Posts: 1,065
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I tend to mostly raise all PPs in all positions (prolly 90-10 ratio). While you may think you lose value by having to check/fold or by being raised off your cbet, think about this--your cbets will take the pot down a good % of the time (and you only need a successful percentage to be profitable, and that is dictated by cbet size). Also, it adds deception to your game and you get action on your sets. Ex:
You hold 6d6c UTG
You raise std amount and get called and we see a flop HU.
Flop is KhQd6h--just think of all the action you get on your LOLCBET, action from AA, AK, AQ, flush draws, etc.....
If you limp call, then check raise the flop, any decent player will imediately get suspicious and is likely to shut down.
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by grnydrowave2
People will say that limp/calling is too transparent, but at 50nl and below, I don't think anyone notices.
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this. The better the players at the table the more you need to disguise your hand. There are some 100nl tables I think l/calling would be optimal on, though I'm too busy multitabling i usually just raise 66+ and fold others.
At 10nl which I think you play, limp call 22-77ish and raise 88+ sounds decent, because you don't want to get into too many raised multiway pots OOP with <77 becuase you can't cbet and will have to c/f a lot.
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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frosst
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: count-n mah monies stewie-style
Posts: 220
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how does limp/calling disguise your hand? the only way I can think of is if you plan on 3betting a LP raiser. Other than that, it's pretty obvious you are set mining, and as a result are going to get bet into more often. Now if you come in raising, your hand is disguised by the fact that: 1. most people raise their strong hands in early position and 2. most people only play strong hands UTG. By raising ALL hands pre flop, you disguise your range better. Leave it to them to figure out whether you are playing the upper/lower part of your range
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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no, I'm agreeing that you can l/c at 50nl and below but above that ppl can hand read a bit and can tell you are set mining so then you need to disguise your hand.
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JinxT4
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 265
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by badgers
Quote:
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Originally Posted by grnydrowave2
People will say that limp/calling is too transparent, but at 50nl and below, I don't think anyone notices.
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this. The better the players at the table the more you need to disguise your hand. There are some 100nl tables I think l/calling would be optimal on, though I'm too busy multitabling i usually just raise 66+ and fold others.
At 10nl which I think you play, limp call 22-77ish and raise 88+ sounds decent, because you don't want to get into too many raised multiway pots OOP with <77 becuase you can't cbet and will have to c/f a lot. |
So you fold 22-66 in UTG/UTG+1? I've been curious as to whether raising these hands from EP were profitable or not, so I'm wondering what your take on this is.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by grnydrowave2
People will say that limp/calling is too transparent, but at 50nl and below, I don't think anyone notices.
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Transparent yes, but it's not as transparent whether you do/don't hit flop your set. That's going to take a hell of a read but can be done.
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
Posts: 3,372
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Jinx, at 50NL+, UTG raises start to get more respect and people as you would expect, start setming you. So you raise UTG with 22 and a lot of the time when you hit your set all that will pay you off is an overset.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mezza Morta
Quote:
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Originally Posted by grnydrowave2
People will say that limp/calling is too transparent, but at 50nl and below, I don't think anyone notices.
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Transparent yes, but it's not as transparent whether you do/don't hit flop your set. That's going to take a hell of a read but can be done. |
Ummmm what? Most of the time you're playing no set/no bet so when you suddenly wake up the person with AA if he has a brain may catch on. Of course, that in itself is exploitable...
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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frosst
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Straight
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: count-n mah monies stewie-style
Posts: 220
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by badgers
Jinx, at 50NL+, UTG raises start to get more respect and people as you would expect, start setming you. So you raise UTG with 22 and a lot of the time when you hit your set all that will pay you off is an overset.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mezza Morta
Quote:
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Originally Posted by grnydrowave2
People will say that limp/calling is too transparent, but at 50nl and below, I don't think anyone notices.
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Transparent yes, but it's not as transparent whether you do/don't hit flop your set. That's going to take a hell of a read but can be done. |
Ummmm what? Most of the time you're playing no set/no bet so when you suddenly wake up the person with AA if he has a brain may catch on. Of course, that in itself is exploitable... |
+1. but those low pp's can still be +EV if you play them with the same lines you use with high overprs/flopped sets. this is where the whole "merging ranges"/disguising your hand comes in.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by badgers
Jinx, at 50NL+, UTG raises start to get more respect and people as you would expect, start setming you. So you raise UTG with 22 and a lot of the time when you hit your set all that will pay you off is an overset.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Mezza Morta
Quote:
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Originally Posted by grnydrowave2
People will say that limp/calling is too transparent, but at 50nl and below, I don't think anyone notices.
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Transparent yes, but it's not as transparent whether you do/don't hit flop your set. That's going to take a hell of a read but can be done. |
Ummmm what? Most of the time you're playing no set/no bet so when you suddenly wake up the person with AA if he has a brain may catch on. Of course, that in itself is exploitable... |
Not sure what the hell I was talking about there... must have been in a hurry. 
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grnydrowave2
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Showin' mah Pokemans
Posts: 651
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by JinxT4
Quote:
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Originally Posted by badgers
Quote:
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Originally Posted by grnydrowave2
People will say that limp/calling is too transparent, but at 50nl and below, I don't think anyone notices.
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this. The better the players at the table the more you need to disguise your hand. There are some 100nl tables I think l/calling would be optimal on, though I'm too busy multitabling i usually just raise 66+ and fold others.
At 10nl which I think you play, limp call 22-77ish and raise 88+ sounds decent, because you don't want to get into too many raised multiway pots OOP with <77 becuase you can't cbet and will have to c/f a lot. |
So you fold 22-66 in UTG/UTG+1? I've been curious as to whether raising these hands from EP were profitable or not, so I'm wondering what your take on this is. |
He just explained why raising small PPs from EP makes life difficult. The alternatives are limp/call and fold. If you can get away with it, limp/call is a great play against bad opponents because they typically get carried away with overpairs and TP type hands. This gives you fantastic implied odds, because if you hit your set, there is a good chance that you'll stack them.
But against observant opponents, it's so obvious what you're doing. They know you don't limp/call with hands like TT+ or AQ+, or even suited connecters. So when you limp/call and jam the pot on a dry board, and they can get lay down AA, then you never had implied odds to begin with, therefore your call preflop was -EV.
So unless you're comfortable playing small pairs out of position in 3-bet pots, it might be better to just fold.
Edit: Oh hi, my name is captain obvious. Whoops.
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<SrslySirius> Hal Lubarsky, my nemesis.
<SaltLick> are you seriously losing to a blind guy
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