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Fnord

01-11-2006, 11:01 PM Post subject: Look mom, no kicker!

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

GAMB00LPoker&SportBook 100NL

4 limpers, SB completes, I check in the BB with K

$6 pot
Flop is: K

Checked to button who bets $4
Button has about $50 and I cover. I've seen him around a bit, loose/active player.
I call, everyone else folds.

$14 pot
Turn is: 9

I check, Button bets $9, I insta-call

$32 pot
River is J

I bet $10..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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jmontis

01-11-2006, 11:09 PM

#2 (permalink)

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I like the river bet, lemme guess he called and showed down TT or some crap

take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately

Lukie

01-12-2006, 12:13 AM

#3 (permalink)

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I normally lead out on the flop, but I also like the way you played it given that he was a loose/active player.

If nothing else, the river bet gives you a cheap showdown against most hands that have you beat here. You may also be value betting with the best hand, although I don't think that bet makes any better hands fold.

If it wasn't played so passively (not necessarily a bad thing, don't take it as such), I like a river check/call or check/fold here.

SonOfAkira

01-12-2006, 12:14 AM

#4 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 147

It always feels like it's Donald Rumsfeld actually posting these. Maybe i'm insane.
This seems like something that would require a good read on a specific player. I think you took the money whether he called or not.

Fnord

01-12-2006, 12:22 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Lukie

I normally lead out on the flop.

Checking gives me a chance to dump to a more credible bet or certainly a bet + call/raise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonOfAkira

This seems like something that would require a good read on a specific player.

Not a very strong read. Plays lots of hands, probably takes them a tad far (but his stack size mitigates this) and I speculated he was capable of a button bet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Blinky

01-12-2006, 12:30 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Fnord, given your read of the player, what would you consider a "credible bet"? Potsize?

Seeing a free flop in the BB and flopping good TPNK is a situation that I struggle with. To Lukie - sometimes I'll lead out on the flop but getting raised OOP sucks. Depending on the opp, getting called OOP might suck even worse...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rondavu

We will not support your pocket pair aggression.

Fnord

01-12-2006, 12:53 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Blinky

Fnord, given your read of the player, what would you consider a "credible bet"? Potsize?

I'm just as interested in who made the bet and from what position as I am in the size.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blinky

sometimes I'll lead out on the flop but getting raised OOP sucks. Depending on the opp, getting called OOP might suck even worse...

Getting raised is easy to deal with. Getting called is much worse, often I just check the turn unimproved intending to fold to a real bet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

01-12-2006, 01:06 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jmontis

Lemme guess he called and showed down TT or some crap

Tanked for about 10 sec and folded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Les_Worm

01-12-2006, 01:10 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Is your river bet a blocking bet or to avoid him checking behind and missing a bet?

The artist formerly known as Knish
Only mediocre players are always at their best.
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Fnord

01-12-2006, 01:18 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Les_Worm

Is your river bet a blocking bet or to avoid him checking behind and missing a bet?

Yes

If I check...
Marginal hands with showdown value check behind
Bust hands bluff or give up, they might even put down a difficult bet to call.
Strong hands bet for value.

If I bet...
Marginal hands might call
Bust hands are confronted with a raise/fold and probably fold. Once in a blue moon they call.
Strong hand might raise for value depending on how strong they think I am.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Lukie

01-12-2006, 07:22 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Blinky

Getting raised by a player with position on you sucks here if you are holding AK. This junk is easy to fold.

If you lead out here, you want all folds. If you don't get folds, you want to get raised so you can dump it. If you get a call, how you proceed on the turn becomes much murkier.

koolmoe

01-12-2006, 01:52 PM

#12 (permalink)

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This played like the classic limit way ahead/ way behind scenario, especially nice against an aggressive player. Well played.

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RiverMonkey

01-20-2006, 04:29 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Posts: 446

My default play is also to check a TPWK hand into a field. However, if less people see the flop (3 or less), I sometimes mix this play up and lead out with a bet on the flop, but I force myself to have a provide a solid justification first. Like, I just took down 3 pots in a row, if I bet here into these two guys, they aren't going to believe me, and they may call me down with second pair or a PP. This is very opponent and situation dependent and tends to work a little better in LHE since people tend to go a little further with marginal hands because they don't have the implied threat of huge bets on later streets.

As I say, by default, I much prefer checking my TPN(W)K hands into the field. Depending on how aggro my opponents are, I might even check it HU. With a check, you get information from the action behind you and you also add a little deception. Often, if an under-card comes on the TURN, second pair and/or low PPs on the flop start to think they have the best hand. You make more when you are ahead, and lose less when behind.

If you are good at smelling weakness, and you notice this pattern of play in your EP-opponents, it opens up a stealing opportunity for you if you are in LP. Sometimes, when I know a player has this tendency to check TPWK, AND they give off a 'I should bet, but I'll check to see what happens' tell, I'll bet the flop (3/4 to pot) if I'm last or second last to act no matter what my two cards are to try and steal it by representing TPGK. If they call, sometimes you have to fire another barrel to convince them. This play often works better when you are second last to act; if you are last, sometimes, the bet is interpreted for what it is, a steal. Look to your left if you aren't last before trying this.

I love it when they flash their ace or king and say, I think I'm out kicked and muck their hand. Which is always followed by a "good laydown" comment from me

To me, an interesting question is how do you defend against this kind of steal-with-position play? Ironically, you can either bet the flop, or check call an over-aggressive who tends to over-use their position to steal. Any other plays that people use here? I guess on some level, it's not worth defending against, you probably aren't giving up that much if you just let it go since these pots tend to be on the small side anyhow.

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