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Look, it´s a blind!

  
 
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XTR1000
Old 03-27-2008, 05:27 PM     Post subject: Look, it´s a blind! #1 (permalink)  
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Hey my fellow full ring nits!

Since I´m running extremely bad lately I´ve come to re-evaluate my game went leak hunting. I believe that a possibly huge leak in everyones game here are our blinds. Lets make this a general blinds-strat thread, where we concentrate our alls knowledge to stop bleeding chips there.

My thoughts so far are unorganized and my brain does better in a discussion, I rely on you all to give input, have ideas and ask questions.

Before we start thinking lets put together our stats as they are

Over a sample of 70k hands at NL100 and NL200 mine are

VPIP from SB: 17% {66+,A5s+,K9s+,Q9s+,JTs,ATo+,KTo+,QTo+}
Folded SB to steal: 91% folding everything but {88+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,AJo+,KQo}
Folded BB to steal: 84% folding everything but {66+,A7s+,A5s,K9s+,Q9s+,JTs,ATo+,KTo+,QJo}
Att. to steal: 28% or {55+,A2s+,K5s+,Q7s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,A7o+,K9o+,Q9o+,J 9o+}

BB won/hand BB: -0.15
BB won/hand SB: -0.12

I pulled the ranges out of pokerstove, so there might be differences to the ranges I actually play, but it´s close enough to get a rough idea to start from.


I´m especially interested in others BB won/hand and if we could find the max outcome one can aim for. Spoon dropped something around
-0.10BB/hand, I´m curious how close everybody else here comes to that number.



For further discussion and range forming I´ll assume different scenarios, of which each could be broken down to different type of opponents


#1 An LP raise when we´re in the blinds

1.1 - we´re SB
1.2 - we´re BB

Discuss:
- 1.1 & 1.2: Calling and 3betting range in respect to villians range
- 1.1 & 1.2: call - donk vs. call - c/c vs. call - c/r
- 1.2: Squeezes when SB called



#2 Folded/limped to us in the SB

2.1 - Folded to
2.2 - Limped pot

Discuss

Raising-, call 3bet- and completing range



#3 We´re BB

3.1 Folded to SB who calls
3.2 Folded to SB who attacks
3.3 Limped to SB who calls/raises

Discuss

- 3.1, 3.2 & 3.3: Raising/3bet- and calling-ranges
- 3.2: 3bet vs. call and float flop




Thats the start. I have some random thoughts running around my mind and I will drop them later when we have put together some stats. Maybe this will come down to a solid "Blind play 101", if we could stimulate a discussion on this often overlooked topic at least I´d be very happy.
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spoonitnow
Old 03-27-2008, 05:36 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 I don't have time at the moment to get too deep into this, but I'll throw out some numbers. I tend to try to keep my folded bb/sb to steal between 80-85%. For me it depends a lot on who is doing the stealing. Also, I keep my attempt to steal at or around 35%, but I really attack tight players.

I'll be back for more.
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wesrman
Old 03-27-2008, 06:12 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Nice idea X. I have been stealing and defending blinds a lot more lately because i feel i have an advantage post flop over my 5NL opponents. This should help me.
Thanks.
 
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Deanglow
Old 03-27-2008, 10:06 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 Here are my stats after 80k hands of 1/2

VPIP from SB: 21%
Folded SB to steal: 90%
Folded BB to steal: 85%
Att. to steal: 30%

BB won/hand BB: -.20
BB won/hand SB: -.02
 
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pgil
Old 03-28-2008, 01:50 AM #5 (permalink)  
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stats for just under 80K of 100NL/PL

VPIP from SB 30
folded SB to steal 88
folded BB to steal 80
Att to steal 45

BB/hand BB -.16
BB/hand SB -.05
"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
 
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XTR1000
Old 03-29-2008, 12:02 AM #6 (permalink)  
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So the train to fix our leaking blinds slowly begins to move.


On 3.2

We´re sitting next to an aggressive regular who auto-raises our BB when it´s folded to him in the SB. Until the beginning of this year my adjustement was to 3bet wider w/ {77+, ATo+, A9s+, QJs+} with the result of folding out most of his range and finding myself behind more often than ahead when called. Then I started with calling {22+, 97s+, 67s+, JTo+}, still raising enough 55-99, Axs on occassion to balance premiums. In BvB villian will cbet a shitload with a weak range oop, which means we can take a large % of pots from him on good flops and turns.


On 1.1 & 1.2

I took this from SHNL, but in BTN vs Blind a good fr-players LP range doesnt differ much from a 6max range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
when you call a good players open raise in late position when you are in the blinds with a small pocket pair you probably play it terribly postflop. alot of times calling pre in that spot is bad enough by itself.

too many times you check call flop because hell, they only hit a pair 1/3 of the time!!! i see you people do this way too much against good players.
Discuss
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badgers
Old 03-29-2008, 12:47 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XTR1000
Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
when you call a good players open raise in late position when you are in the blinds with a small pocket pair you probably play it terribly postflop. alot of times calling pre in that spot is bad enough by itself.

too many times you check call flop because hell, they only hit a pair 1/3 of the time!!! i see you people do this way too much against good players.
Discuss
Awesome thread.

I think the logic behind what Gabe's saying is that calling with small PPs should be done for set value if at all here since we are OOP. Calling for set value, when we already may not have odds against such a wide range, means you have to C/F all other flops, unless a c/r is occassionally profitable etc. etc. etc. You can't call for set value then call a bet with just a pair, this is made even worse when you are OOP and will have to c/f most turns. By c/cing the flop you not only void the whole reason for calling pre, you also give opp two cards to hit his overcards and even then potentially bluff us with air...
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jimmy44
Old 03-29-2008, 12:46 PM #8 (permalink)  
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 35k hands of 100NL

VPIP from SB 20
folded SB to steal 91
folded BB to steal 88
Att to steal 23

BB/hand BB -.18
BB/hand SB -.15

WOW, I'm terrible from the blinds!!
And I don't steal enough. However (to my defence ) as I'm playing in ongame (where a lot players are calling stations), I fell that wehn I increase this steal I get pawned ...
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pgil
Old 04-08-2008, 05:40 PM #9 (permalink)  
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this thread died too quickly as it is something that I am sure we could all work on.

I think a good way to go would be, rather than have set scenarios, discuss what sorts of variables we are taking into account when we decide which line to take with which range.

For example, when considering defending BB vs. a LP raiser, obviously the first and probably most important variable is att. to steal. This will have to be coupled with how opp reacts to a 3bet vs. a flat call from the blinds. If opp is calling 3bets loose and going really far with med. strength hands in 3bet pots, then we will want to tighten our 3bet range vs. him, and possibly expand our cold calling range.

I don't know if we should be expanding it to include more drawy hands that will allow us to make more flop/turn leads/raises with the added equity of our draw, or if we should be playing more TP type of hands and turn them into bluff catchers. I guess it would also depend on our opponents cbet/2 barreling frequency.

thoughts.
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XTR1000
Old 04-25-2008, 10:54 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pgil
this thread died too quickly as it is something that I am sure we could all work on.

I think a good way to go would be, rather than have set scenarios, discuss what sorts of variables we are taking into account when we decide which line to take with which range.

For example, when considering defending BB vs. a LP raiser, obviously the first and probably most important variable is att. to steal. This will have to be coupled with how opp reacts to a 3bet vs. a flat call from the blinds. If opp is calling 3bets loose and going really far with med. strength hands in 3bet pots, then we will want to tighten our 3bet range vs. him, and possibly expand our cold calling range.

I don't know if we should be expanding it to include more drawy hands that will allow us to make more flop/turn leads/raises with the added equity of our draw, or if we should be playing more TP type of hands and turn them into bluff catchers. I guess it would also depend on our opponents cbet/2 barreling frequency.

thoughts.
BUMP

I think ur right on point here. An important adjustement in LP vs blind and BB vs SB is polarized 3betting range. When SB attacks our SB, we´re better off 3betting the top of our range for value and the lower part like 22-55, 56o and stuff for balance and folding equity. With hands that play decent postflop, but are likely to be dominated by villians calling range I prefer to call and float IP and call and donk bet for value if I catch something on the flop. 3betting KJs, 88 and such hands is a mistake, while they could be pretty profitable if we play them smart postflop.
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pgil
Old 04-30-2008, 03:46 PM #11 (permalink)  
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this thread just will not live. I don't get it.

Maybe noone cares about blind play in FR.

I have recently had a string of my 3bets getting absolutely no respect from regs. might have been running into real hands, or might have to adjust back to tighter ranges vs certain players, at least for a little while. The common line seems to be call flop bet, bet/raise turn. I don't like this as it removes a large amount from my winrate.

Do FR players float in 3bet pots?
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pokerfan
Old 04-30-2008, 04:04 PM #12 (permalink)  
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i only float with top pair+ or just shove with monster drawing hand right on flop in 3 bet pot. So I suggest you not to double barrel a lot with air. Yeah, they have you beat most of the time unless you have solid reads on certain retarded regs. Sometimes ,you might try c/r your very strong hand as a trap on the flop/turn if they frequently float and take down the pot on later streets. Otherwise, your cb won't work enough to be justified in 3 bet pots.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgil
this thread just will not live. I don't get it.

Maybe noone cares about blind play in FR.

I have recently had a string of my 3bets getting absolutely no respect from regs. might have been running into real hands, or might have to adjust back to tighter ranges vs certain players, at least for a little while. The common line seems to be call flop bet, bet/raise turn. I don't like this as it removes a large amount from my winrate.

Do FR players float in 3bet pots?
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Miffed22001
Old 04-30-2008, 08:46 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 did anybody actually filter for when your blind is attacked (ie stolen) from PT stats and not your overall blind stats.

fwiw
60k sample
-0.37 from the bb
-0.13 from the sb

However, when i filter for a steal attempted versus my blind

In the BB i make -0.21 bbs per hand versus a steal
In the sb i make -0.31 bbs per hand versus a steal

This means whatever im doing in the sb needs to stop and whatever im doing in the BB is ok, probably can be improved.

Someone mentioned that its fr who cares about the blinds? I remember a quote from fnord that the game revolves around the battle for the blinds hence why the game opens up so much from HJ/CO and why 6 amx is so aggressive.
If you dont implement these actions in fr you are missing a major oppertunity to make free money.
I mean an average player is playing like 18+ vpip from HJ/CO/btn arears and is folding all but 5-8 of that range to an oop 3bet.

Convert to $$$$$$ please
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Keilah
Old 05-01-2008, 08:16 AM #14 (permalink)  
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3.1 (Folded to SB who completes) I have a pretty wide raising range; 22+, 65s+, A2s+, A8o+, broadways. They usually give it up pre and if not we've got position and initiative, which is a fine setup for a cbet. IMO completing when folded to is giving money away.

3.2 (Folded to SB who raises) is interesting. I haven't put much thought into it, but I'd usually flat call with 22-88 and sometimes SCs/Axs if the stacks are deep, 3bet 99+, AT+, sometimes SCs/Axs if the SB has a high (>30%) steal rate and the stacks are big. I feel like my ideas on this one are poor, honestly.

3.3 (limpers, SB either completes or raises) is pretty easy if SB completes; i raise with strong top pair type hands (AQ, AK, also AJ if there's not a tight limper in EP) and 99+, otherwise I take my free look at the flop.

If SB raises, it's often tough - if we flat call we're taking a chance on whether any of the limpers want to isolate/squeeze. This is particularly a problem if one of the limpers has <20BB. Mostly I'm reraising premiums and AK here (what would be good to add for balance?) and folding the rest. This is a lousy spot IMO, but it rarely happens.

In all cases, check the attempt to steal % - I've noticed many players, including some aparently decent regs, who have a steal % no higher than their vp$ip. Against those guys, I just pretend they're a MP/LP raiser and I'm on the button.
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