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dev
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03-14-2008, 05:45 PM
Post subject: Let's play find the fold!
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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I spent this whole hand trying to find a fold, but I never did. Can you?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Button ($28.15)
SB ($60.30)
BB ($25.25)
UTG ($19.20)
UTG+1 ($4.95)
Hero ($24.90)
MP2 ($24.90)
CO ($6.80)
Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A , 4.
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.75, 1 fold, CO calls $0.75, Button raises to $2.5, 2 folds, UTG calls $2.25, Hero calls $1.75, CO calls $1.75.
Flop: ($10.35) A , A , T (4 players)
UTG bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75, CO raises to $4.3, Button calls $4.30, UTG calls $3.55, Hero calls $3.55.
Turn: ($27.55) K (4 players)
UTG bets $6.75, Hero calls $6.75, Button raises to $21.35, UTG calls $5.65 (All-In), Hero calls $11.35 (All-In).
River: ($76.15) T (4 players, 2 all-in)
Final Pot: $79.40
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Warpe
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Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Canuckistan
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fold preflop. fold flop.
look up 'reverse implied odds'
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
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If you're gunna raise PF, it's gunna have to be bigger than .75 with a limper behind. The 'standard' there would be 1.25
I fold to the 3-bet preflop. Too expensive to hunt for a flush/2pr and you're not making anything significant from TPNK.
On the flop, I don't think you're good here very often in a 4-way where nobody's folding. Someone's got a better kicker than a 4 or has TT. I know it's hard to lay down the trips here, but that's the dodgy situation you got yourself into by calling the 3-bet preflop.
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
fold preflop. fold flop.
look up 'reverse implied odds'
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reverse implied odds on what? I'm not losing to a better flush, possibly to a better two pair, but with all these callers I'm not going broke with just a pair of aces.
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Check out my self-deprecation here!
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Warpe
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Moderator
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by d0zer
If you're gunna raise PF, it's gunna have to be bigger than .75 with a limper behind. The 'standard' there would be 1.25
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Point taken, I was going 3bb+limpers at the time, don't know why this one's .75.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by d0zer
I fold to the 3-bet preflop. Too expensive to hunt for a flush/2pr and you're not making anything significant from TPNK.
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Too expensive? The CO is calling this 90+% of the time. I'm getting better than 4:1. The implied odds are really good here.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by d0zer
On the flop, I don't think you're good here very often in a 4-way where nobody's folding. Someone's got a better kicker than a 4 or has TT. I know it's hard to lay down the trips here, but that's the dodgy situation you got yourself into by calling the 3-bet preflop.
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Now I'm getting better than 6.5:1 on a drawing board with a side pot. JJ-KK is still involved and if draws are in these guys' ranges than the case ace is a small %.
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dev
with all these callers I'm not going broke with just a pair of aces.
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You basically did on this hand.
top pair and top trips really aren't that different in that they both often come down to kicker wars or are up against a set/boat. What hands do you hope to beat on the flop here? Would JJ-KK still be in there? KT?
The only hands you beat on the flop are ones that only the biggest donk station in the world would continue with. Even if all the other villains fit that image, the odds of at least ONE of them having A9+ are just too good...
Definitely reverse implied odds. Axs has great implied odds when you see a flop for cheap & hit the nut flush draw. Which only happens roughly 10% of the time.
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by d0zer
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dev
with all these callers I'm not going broke with just a pair of aces.
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You basically did on this hand.
top pair and top trips really aren't that different in that they both often come down to kicker wars or are up against a set/boat. What hands do you hope to beat on the flop here? Would JJ-KK still be in there? KT? |
Except that the chances of my ace being dominated just went down by 2/3. It's a significantly different situation than an AT5 flop, where I check/fold.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by d0zer
The only hands you beat on the flop are ones that only the biggest donk station in the world would continue with. Even if all the other villains fit that image, the odds of at least ONE of them having A9+ are just too good...
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A 4 is still probably good, and that alone is 8:1, coupled with the chance that I'm good already.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by d0zer
Definitely reverse implied odds. Axs has great implied odds when you see a flop for cheap & hit the nut flush draw. Which only happens roughly 10% of the time.
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You're discounting 2p or trip 4s.
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d0zer
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,523
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dev
A 4 is still probably good, and that alone is 8:1, coupled with the chance that I'm good already.
You're discounting 2p or trip 4s.
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trips & 2pr gives you another ~3.5% yes, but I still think this is bad preflop.
I just know that I've been stacked enough times holding high trips-crap kicker in a raised multi-way that I just don't play them anymore...
Besides, if you thought that you were good on the flop, you should really have raised big to kill anyone's drawing odds, but with a hand like A4 on that board in a 3-bet 4-way it's hard to be that confident that you're good.
I'm going to take a wild guess and say that BU had KK/AK, and UTG had you either outkickered, or had a good draw? Nice river 
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
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I honestly did try to find a fold during this hand.
For the sake of the discussion I took the opposing view.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by d0zer
I'm going to take a wild guess and say that BU had KK/AK, and UTG had you either outkickered, or had a good draw? Nice river |
It's worse than you think, I actually scooped this one.
opposing hands:
BU: KK
KTs
QJo
After the QQ discussion, etc. I have been working out it my head exactly how much respect to give these guys. I think this one goes either way.
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Check out my self-deprecation here!
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Fnord
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03-14-2008, 08:14 PM
Post subject: Re: Let's play find the fold!
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#11 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dev
Flop: ($10.35) A , A , T (4 players)
UTG bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75, CO raises to $4.3, Button calls $4.30
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You're almost never good at EXACTLY this point in the hand.
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dev
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03-14-2008, 08:25 PM
Post subject: Re: Let's play find the fold!
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#12 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dev
Flop: ($10.35) A , A , T (4 players)
UTG bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75, CO raises to $4.3, Button calls $4.30
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You're almost never good at EXACTLY this point in the hand. |
If he can call with TT+,AK,AQ we beat his range, and that's assuming he never raises despite the draws and the size of the pot.
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Check out my self-deprecation here!
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sweetlemon69
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03-14-2008, 08:30 PM
Post subject: Re: Let's play find the fold!
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#13 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Toronto
Posts: 296
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by dev
Flop: ($10.35) A , A , T (4 players)
UTG bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75, CO raises to $4.3, Button calls $4.30
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You're almost never good at EXACTLY this point in the hand. |
At first, my eyes were drawn to the huge sized font, and I laughed hard. But it was this that made me see the fold / point in which I wasn't safe. Comical and yet to the point, love it 
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Fnord
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03-14-2008, 08:34 PM
Post subject: Re: Let's play find the fold!
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#14 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by dev
If he can call with TT+,AK,AQ we beat his range, and that's assuming he never raises despite the draws and the size of the pot.
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You also need to consider the odds one of the other 2 hands has us smoked. The union of all 3 other hands that have shown interest here should send a pretty clear signal we got coolered.
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d0zer
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03-14-2008, 08:40 PM
Post subject: Re: Let's play find the fold!
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#15 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,523
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
You also need to consider the odds one of the other 2 hands has us smoked. The union of all 3 other hands that have shown interest here should send a pretty clear signal we got coolered.
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How d'u feel about the 3-bet call PF? I like it a whole lot better if hero is last to call, but with the CO left to act it seems a little dodgy.
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Fnord
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03-14-2008, 08:44 PM
Post subject: Re: Let's play find the fold!
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#16 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by d0zer
How d'u feel about the 3-bet call PF? I like it a whole lot better if hero is last to call, but with the CO left to act it seems a little dodgy.
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Yeah, fair chance CO just sticks the rest in.
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kmind
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Not Giving In
Posts: 4,240
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wtf pre and flop
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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this hand sucks a lot, not even worth talking IMO. 
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfan
this hand sucks a lot, not even worth talking IMO. |
*devr cries, recites robb's posts into mirror*
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Check out my self-deprecation here!
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jyms
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Tilting Mod
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,836
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This hand should not have cost you a penny. I would have had Autofold clicked and moved to my other tables.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
This hand should not have cost you a penny. I would have had Autofold clicked and moved to my other tables.
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Results Oriented Thinking!
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dev
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: swonging and swonging
Posts: 1,550
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Trainer_jyms
This hand should not have cost you a penny. I would have had Autofold clicked and moved to my other tables.
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Results Oriented Thinking! |
besides, it didn't cost me a penny.
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Check out my self-deprecation here!
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