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doubledown
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04-13-2006, 05:21 PM
Post subject: Later Bankroll
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#1 (permalink)
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 105
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I've lost about $400-$450 the last 2 days (.5/1 NL 6 handed, Full Tilt) to donks pressing with Flush Draws. In all 3 occassions where I've lost this $400 I reraised donkey bets on flushes with clearly the better hand and have been re-raised all in. In every occassion I correctly called and lost each hand to a flush on the river. My firts donk loss of this stretch I had AA and the donk went in with a 10h 2h, flopped the draw then struck gold on the river. The next case I had Q's that hit a set on the turn, the donkey re raised me all in with a mid pair and flush draw, hit the flush on the river. Yesterday, the worst of all, I lose to a donkey (see below)
Me:AQ
Donkey: Ah 10h
Flop: Ac8h8d
Turn: 4h
River: 6h
Donkey reraised after the flop, then I put him all in.
Fortunately I took my last $30 to the .25/.50 and built it up to $160, still hanging in there.
But my overall point is that I'm getting great reads on my opponnents, putting the chips in with the best hand, and continously losing. I'm not a "this game is fixed person," in fact I'm a huge online fan. Just can't learn to become a winner financially online. Most of my winnings come from live tournaments.
Any advice? Perhaps I should move up levels and play tougher competition with my next rebuy? Invest more in my skills, financially I have money to start a new bankroll.
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Listen, here's the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in your first half hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker.
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Pelion
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04-13-2006, 05:24 PM
Post subject: Re: Later Bankroll
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#2 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by doubledown
Perhaps I should move up levels and play tougher competition with my next rebuy?
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So... you played 6 max with 5 buyins and went broke? Thats not really surprising is it...
Move down to a level you can afford and then bad beats wont upset you so much.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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WildBobAA
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: lol i dunno
Posts: 1,811
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You should have 20 buy ins minimum.
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DaHorror
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 616
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What Pelion said. This sounds like largely a bankroll management issue.
However, if your bankroll is really $5000 or something, and you just don't deposit it all at once, disregard.
Also, it seems that people are much more aggro with draws at the mid-higher levels than they are at the lower levels (where I sit), so ya just have to keep riding it out. That's some pretty bad luck though.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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you should have more buyins than appearances of the word 'donk' or 'donkey' in your inquiring post.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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i dropped 10 buyins in a row once at .5/1. i had bankroll management skills so it didnt bother me.
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doubledown
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 105
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I find lower stakes too boring...but you recommend that if I want to truely profit in poker at say a .5/$1 NL Ring game (6 handed on FT), I need to invest $2k? I can kill the .5/$1, I just usually blow my roll on tourneys.
What about the theory of say, $400 buy in and hitting a $4/$8 on UB or something and all or nothing?
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Listen, here's the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in your first half hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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consistantly kill 100nl for 10-15k hands before you think of moving up.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by doubledown
What about the theory of say, $400 buy in and hitting a $4/$8 on UB or something and all or nothing? |
Its fine as long as you realise you are likely to come away with nothing.
If you want to gamble, then go for it.
if you want to play poker then you need to slow down. Low stakes is still poker. If thats boring to you then it sounds like you enjoy the gamble of playing out of your bankroll. If thats the case then thats fine. Have fun but realise that you probably will never be any good.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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doubledown
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 105
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I appreciate the advice...I'm more of a tourney player learning the life of a ring gamer. I've used local live touraments in Seattle my 2nd income so I do have a sufficent bankroll to work with. I also have a hit a few nice payoffs in some Party Poker and Full Tilt Tournaments that have provided me with bankroll in the past.
Also, can you guys tell me a good place to play? I've had people tell me the NL games on FT are a little tougher, though thats' tough to believe. I've had bankroll tied up on this site for so long haven't ventured out much lately.
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Listen, here's the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in your first half hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker.
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doubledown
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 105
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Any good? I've hit numerous paydays in tournaments and every hand I lost in this recent run was to a bad beat, clearly favored. My skills are great, far superior to that of a nickel table.
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Listen, here's the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in your first half hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by doubledown
I appreciate the advice...I'm more of a tourney player learning the life of a ring gamer. I've used local live touraments in Seattle my 2nd income so I do have a sufficent bankroll to work with. I also have a hit a few nice payoffs in some Party Poker and Full Tilt Tournaments that have provided me with bankroll in the past.
Also, can you guys tell me a good place to play? I've had people tell me the NL games on FT are a little tougher, though thats' tough to believe. I've had bankroll tied up on this site for so long haven't ventured out much lately. |
apparently the 100NL stars games are pretty soft if you like to bully the nits. Never played it myself but thats the impression I get from Fnord + Lukie.
edit: From your posts it sounds like you actually do have a pretty big BR, but not all of it is in the sites. If this is the case then you dont need to move down, just ride it out. Its all just short term varience. As long as you are in there with the best of it, and the site isnt rigged, the results dont matter.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by doubledown
My skills are great, far superior to that of a nickel table.
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lol, then maybe we should be asking you for advice
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doubledown
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 105
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seriously, how can you play for a .50 pots?
Then again I turned 30 into 160 in about an hour on .25/.5 table
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Listen, here's the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in your first half hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker.
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Pelion
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,206
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by doubledown
seriously, how can you play for a .50 pots?
Then again I turned 30 into 160 in about an hour on .25/.5 table
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Why are you trying to turn this around onto me?
Im playing in a game I am winning at whilst building up my BR. You made a post saying you just lost your entire BR in 2 days so I tried to help. If you are going to get shitty about it why post in the first place?
Ill say it again. If you are playing outside your roll then move down. You clearly cant handle this kind of natural varience.
If you have plenty of money left over that you can put into poker then just grind it out.
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gabe: Ive dropped almost 100k in the past 35 days.
bigspenda73: But how much did you win?
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WildBobAA
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: lol i dunno
Posts: 1,811
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by doubledown
Then again I turned 30 into 160 in about an hour on .25/.5 table
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Variance happens.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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sup bob
im so confused about the point of this thread
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WildBobAA
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: lol i dunno
Posts: 1,811
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yea i'm pretty confused too
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doubledown
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 105
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sorry for the confusion guys. My point is that I should be making more money but I am in a rough stretch. I think I do need to take your advice and build a more structured bankroll and keep track of my records accurately. I've done a lot of studying of late, my tourney game is profitable, now it's time to start making the big money at the Ring Games. I appreciate your advice, just don't look too forward to grinding it out at the cheap seats.
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Listen, here's the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in your first half hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by gabe
i dropped 10 buyins in a row once at .5/1. i had bankroll management skills so it didnt bother me. |
My record is a -12 buy-in swing playing full table NLHE.
I think I was in the realm of -10 or -11 at one point playing 6 max NLHE. Some of that was my fault and since then I've been working on getting better at not getting the worst of it in so many big pots.
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WildBobAA
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: lol i dunno
Posts: 1,811
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by doubledown
just don't look too forward to grinding it out at the cheap seats.
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no one does, but we all have to
Gabe, rebuy madness tonight?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by doubledown
My point is that I should be making more money but I am in a rough stretch. I think I do need to take your advice and build a more structured bankroll and keep track of my records accurately. I've done a lot of studying of late, my tourney game is profitable, now it's time to start making the big money at the Ring Games. I appreciate your advice, just don't look too forward to grinding it out at the cheap seats.
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Based on this, I don't think you're very good at cash game poker and misunderstand a lot about poker. I could be wrong.
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doubledown
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 105
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Like I said, fairly new to the cash game...I've been a tournament player for years and very respected within my local tournament community. In fact I avg roughly 2k a month from playing a mix of Lower buy in touranments during the week and a higher buy in during the weekend. I find the tournament game much more pure...
As for cash games, I have to get used to the level of intelligence at the .5/$1 NL I regularly play O(of late). The amount of fish, that strike gold is unbelievable. I've moved to the approach of sitting back, waiting for the big hand and of late have had a bad roll. Losing about $400 of my $600 bankroll that I've been using on FT for Satellites, SnG's, Ring Games, Bullshitting drunk,etc.
But I love you forum posters that have the excel spreadsheets, podcasts and claim they are all good becasue the track their .1/.2 RING GAMES and talk shit.
Would love to see how GOOD you are? What's your biggest tournament win?
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Listen, here's the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in your first half hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker.
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doubledown
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 105
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And trust me, I understand poker. I've studied Gordon, Harrington, Sklansky, Brunson. I have a tremendous feel for the game and understand the approach of being profitable. I argue that my game is more profitable playing a level of opponent that may understand my play...Fishies that have no concept of reading my hand and only worried about the in front of them are profitable...but seem to have my number of late with previously explained bad beats.
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Listen, here's the thing. If you can't spot the sucker in your first half hour at the table, then you ARE the sucker.
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WildBobAA
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: lol i dunno
Posts: 1,811
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Uhm tournaments take a lot less skill to play than cash games.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by doubledown
Like I said, fairly new to the cash game...I've been a tournament player for years and very respected within my local tournament community.
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Tourney poker is very different, atrracts lottery-mentality bad players and breaks them slower. Also, live poker is different/softer than online poker at comperable table stakes.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by doubledown
In fact I avg roughly 2k a month from playing a mix of Lower buy in touranments during the week and a higher buy in during the weekend.
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Good for you.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by doubledown
I find the tournament game much more pure...
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I'm the opposite. I don't care much for dealing with +$EV vs +chipEV and the LAST thing I want to do after some donk I have position on sucks out on me for my stack is leave the table!
Quote:
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Originally Posted by doubledown
As for cash games, I have to get used to the level of intelligence at the .5/$1 NL I regularly play O(of late). The amount of fish, that strike gold is unbelievable. I've moved to the approach of sitting back, waiting for the big hand and of late have had a bad roll. Losing about $400 of my $600 bankroll that I've been using on FT for Satellites, SnG's, Ring Games, Bullshitting drunk,etc.
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More reason to think you don't play cash games well. Some people who make strange plays aren't fish. FT has a bit of a rep as being one of the more difficult sites at comperable stakes.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by doubledown
Would love to see how GOOD you are? What's your biggest tournament win?
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*sigh* we've been here.
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drmcboy
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DrButtInski
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,602
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sup
Quote:
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you should have more buyins than appearances of the word 'donk' or 'donkey' in your inquiring post.
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this was awesome.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,334
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by WildBobAA
Uhm tournaments take a lot less skill to play than cash games.
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Meh, it's just different.
One problem our hero might be having is dealing with deeper money.
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WildBobAA
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: lol i dunno
Posts: 1,811
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Yea that's what I was implying. You have to think a lot more when playing a deepstack.
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nutsinho
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: flattin ur 4bets, makin u tilt
Posts: 3,280
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uncool
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My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
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andy-akb
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,836
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by doubledown
Like I said, fairly new to the cash game...I've been a tournament player for years and very respected within my local tournament community. In fact I avg roughly 2k a month from playing a mix of Lower buy in touranments during the week and a higher buy in during the weekend. I find the tournament game much more pure...
As for cash games, I have to get used to the level of intelligence at the .5/$1 NL I regularly play O(of late). The amount of fish, that strike gold is unbelievable. I've moved to the approach of sitting back, waiting for the big hand and of late have had a bad roll. Losing about $400 of my $600 bankroll that I've been using on FT for Satellites, SnG's, Ring Games, Bullshitting drunk,etc.
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If you have such a great understanding of poker as you make it seem then you would know a few things.
1. You shouldnt be playing $100NL on a $600 BR, simply because you have great success in your local tournies doesnt mean you can just jump into a game like that with only 6 buyins.
2. There is a thing called variance, having more buyins accounts for that. A great player like yourself should understand that you will get a lot of bad beats in your career, your bankroll should be able to absorb those.
3. This could be my inexperience, but I dont think pushing over a reraise with AQ on a board of A88 is profitable
Quote:
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Originally Posted by doubledown
But I love you forum posters that have the excel spreadsheets, podcasts and claim they are all good becasue the track their .1/.2 RING GAMES and talk shit.
Would love to see how GOOD you are? What's your biggest tournament win?
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Nobody was really talking shit until you started coming off all high and mighty. People came in here and asked you questions and tried to respond to your posts, you then flipped out. Should people at those levels not try and improve? Should they not track their results? Should these beginners play out of their bankroll?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by doubledown
I argue that my game is more profitable playing a level of opponent that may understand my play...Fishies that have no concept of reading my hand and only worried about the in front of them are profitable...but seem to have my number of late with previously explained bad beats.
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That is one of the most common lines you hear from a beginner, they think they will play better against better players. If you cant beat $100NL you wont beat $800NL. And also, buying in for your full bankroll [less than a full buyin] at any level, even $.25/.50 isnt smart.
If people try to give you advice, listen to them, you make $24k a year playing poker, to most of us thats a lot of money from poker, but to some that is nothing, so dont act like you are better than everybody, listen to what everyone has to say.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by doubledown
I find lower stakes too boring...
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Uh oh.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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Stripclubjunkie
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Stripclubs
Posts: 1,293
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Why "bother" with ring if you're winning 2k/month at tournaments? Perhaps you should get a roll and start play sng and mtt...I have played some ring and its not my thing, so i'm playing tourneys only for the most part...
Strip
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dalecooper
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,107
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by doubledown
I argue that my game is more profitable playing a level of opponent that may understand my play...Fishies that have no concept of reading my hand and only worried about the in front of them are profitable...
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I hear this a lot from medium-level players who know by-the-book poker inside and out, but can't step their game up to the next level and change gears as required. The best and most profitable players are always the adaptable ones. And one adaptation - well, actually two - that you need to learn to make are adapting to the play of fishes, donks, and calling stations, and handling the variance their cally callington ways will cause you to experience. You want to get into big pots with the best of it against bad players. But sometimes the best of it might be 60/40 in your favor - that means all it takes is a few not-very-bad beats for you to lose your buyin x3. That's where adaptability comes into play.
I'm guessing, besides what you are telling us, that you also have some frustration with trying to bluff the unbluffable, and making continuation bets into people who don't seem to fold to them very much. Correct me if I'm wrong. That's another area where adaptability comes into play. Against players who call a lot, you should be betting mostly when you have the goods, and you should try to control the pot size as well instead of trying to run them out of the hand in frustration. These things can be leaks, and they lead to tilt which is a worse leak.
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gabe
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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heres my 100nl 6 max graph
theres a -12er in there.
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piratepeaty
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04-13-2006, 08:21 PM
Post subject: Re: Later Bankroll
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#36 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 121
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by doubledown
Any advice? Perhaps I should move up levels and play tougher competition with my next rebuy? Invest more in my skills, financially I have money to start a new bankroll.
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Yeah, I recommend you move up to $10-20 as quickly as possible. That way people will respect your raises.
And then you will be in-the-casholla!
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gabe
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04-13-2006, 08:28 PM
Post subject: Re: Later Bankroll
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#37 (permalink)
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: trying to live
Posts: 7,964
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by piratepeaty
Yeah, I recommend you move up to $10-20 as quickly as possible. That way people will respect your raises.
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dpe8598
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 261
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LOL. The problem really is that you are too good for this level. Someone with your unique cash game skills should be taking on the big games. I'll be watching out for you!
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Lukie
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: back with a vengeance
Posts: 3,307
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by doubledown
And trust me, I understand poker. I've studied Gordon, Harrington, Sklansky, Brunson. I have a tremendous feel for the game and understand the approach of being profitable. I argue that my game is more profitable playing a level of opponent that may understand my play...Fishies that have no concept of reading my hand and only worried about the in front of them are profitable...but seem to have my number of late with previously explained bad beats.
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This post is absolutely fantastic.
FWIW, my live friends (many of whom I don't think could beat the NL10 game on stars, seriously), have very similar views as yourself.
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