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kk vs 3 bet 50 nl

  
 
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theDEEPdish
Old 05-08-2006, 06:50 AM     Post subject: kk vs 3 bet 50 nl #1 (permalink)  
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the limp was a misclick


***** Hand History for Game 4214641892 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, May 08, 02:37:01 ET 2006
Table Table 98451 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 6: wanwin ( $82.47 )
Seat 1: gorilaforila ( $40.98 )
Seat 2: SydneyMB ( $39.75 )
Seat 4: Wolverines18 ( $95.20 )
Seat 7: max424 ( $45.25 )
Seat 10: Pyewackett22 ( $52.85 )
Seat 8: Drdokka111 ( $66.93 )
Seat 9: winsumpots ( $49.95 )
Seat 5: TheMemphian ( $50.40 )
Seat 3: Bazuko3 ( $48 )
TheMemphian posts small blind [$0.25].
wanwin posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to gorilaforila [ Ks Kd ]
max424 folds.
Drdokka111 folds.
winsumpots folds.
Pyewackett22 calls [$0.50].
>You have options at Table 96396 Table!.
gorilaforila calls [$0.50].
SydneyMB folds.
>You have options at Table 96396 Table!.
Bazuko3 raises [$2.50].
TheMemphian folds.
>You have options at Table 97866 Table!.
wanwin folds.
Pyewackett22 calls [$2].
gorilaforila raises [$6].
>You have options at Table 96396 Table!.
Bazuko3 raises [$12.50].
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Stripclubjunkie
Old 05-08-2006, 02:34 PM #2 (permalink)  
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AI...Although it looks like aces, could be kings too...
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dalecooper
Old 05-08-2006, 02:37 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripclubjunkie
AI...Although it looks like aces, could be kings too...
I hope there are more options than that:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
71,916,768 games 0.078 secs 922,009,846 games/sec

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 22.6177 % 15.59% 07.03% { KK }
Hand 2: 77.3823 % 70.35% 07.03% { KK+ }
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Stripclubjunkie
Old 05-08-2006, 02:41 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalecooper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripclubjunkie
AI...Although it looks like aces, could be kings too...
I hope there are more options than that:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
71,916,768 games 0.078 secs 922,009,846 games/sec

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 22.6177 % 15.59% 07.03% { KK }
Hand 2: 77.3823 % 70.35% 07.03% { KK+ }
I'm just saying i aint letting this one go...Could be AQ,AK,QQ+...
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dalecooper
Old 05-08-2006, 02:47 PM #5 (permalink)  
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It's interesting to think about opponent's 3-betting range here. If it's only QQ+, you're dead even with him - 50/50. If you add AK your equity jumps up to 58%, which isn't bad. Add JJ instead of AK and it's 60%. So you're only really in trouble against super-tight opponents, but you're not exactly in a dominant position against most standard players, either... that's a bit of a quandary. I guess that's why most players just push & hope.
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Stripclubjunkie
Old 05-08-2006, 02:53 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Hero could call and see a flop...
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dalecooper
Old 05-08-2006, 03:14 PM #7 (permalink)  
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That's another possibility. A lot of players will do this with KK. I actually did this just the other day and the nice thing was, I think it helped me destack the guy (he had QQ). He might not have shoved all his chips in the pot if I had three-bet before the flop. But I smooth-called and then check-raised all in on a rag board, and he must have thought I was getting cute with something like nines or tens. On the other side, if the flop comes out with an ace you can safely roll over and die, since you're now likely to be behind his range (although still ahead of QQ).
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crushednuts
Old 05-08-2006, 03:22 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Plus if you see a flop and the guy has AA and hits a set you can easily dump it. Just gives you another way to avoid going broke when you are against AA. If you push all in before the flop he is probably going to dump any weak holding and only call if he has AA. If you see a flop you may be able to check raise and get it all in from other parts of his range.

I think reraising all in after the other guy 3 bets you is a huge leak in alot of players games. at least 90% of the time the pot gets to be like $40+ pre flop in a $25 NL game someone has the aces. Much more profitable to just call the bet and see a flop IMHO.
Sometimes the nuts just get crushed

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fasin8ing
Old 05-08-2006, 03:35 PM #9 (permalink)  
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This has to be the hardest hand for me to play right now. I have been up against QQ alot or suited shit hands. Whats terrible about my play with K K-

My stack will be 25 bucks..
I often re raise strong - 3 to 4 times their raise. Which is usually 1.00 .

leaves me with 21 dollars.

If I get a caller I c bet. pot = 9 bucks.

I c bet maybe 5 bucks.

stack = 16 dollars.

Q hits on the turn.. I take it as if they have A Q.. I c bet maybe 8 bucks.

stack = 8 bucks...

They re raise..

stack = 0
 
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WildBobAA
Old 05-08-2006, 03:42 PM #10 (permalink)  
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I wouldn't start making this fold until you hit 200NL. There are so many guys at 50NL that will stick it in with TT-QQ/AK/AQ
 
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crushednuts
Old 05-08-2006, 03:46 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Not saying to fold preflop. Just call, take a flop, analyze the board, then possibly commit your stack. Gotta be careful not to out think yourself tho.
Sometimes the nuts just get crushed

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Stripclubjunkie
Old 05-08-2006, 03:49 PM #12 (permalink)  
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***** Hand History for Game 4216333781 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, May 08, 11:46:19 ET 2006
Table Pomeranian (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: N3cromancer ( $59 )
Seat 3: Da_Mortician ( $69.72 )
Seat 7: AtsionRd ( $17.65 )
Seat 8: Dudanation ( $47.20 )
Seat 9: yeah6 ( $49.60 )
Seat 10: selasy ( $58.90 )
Seat 4: Stripclbjnk ( $49.50 )
Seat 6: wanwin ( $15.10 )
Seat 5: MrEltonJohn ( $48.25 )
Seat 1: Painter_ ( $49.50 )
wanwin posts small blind [$0.25].
AtsionRd posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Stripclbjnk [ Ks Kh ]
Dudanation folds.
yeah6 calls [$0.50].
selasy folds.
Painter_ folds.
N3cromancer folds.
Da_Mortician calls [$0.50].
Stripclbjnk raises [$3].
MrEltonJohn folds.
wanwin folds.
AtsionRd raises [$8].
yeah6 folds.
Da_Mortician folds.
Stripclbjnk is all-In [$46.50]
AtsionRd is all-In [$9.15]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4h, 2h, Td ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Jd ]
** Dealing River ** [ 2s ]
AtsionRd shows [ Ac, Ah ] two pairs, aces and twos.
Stripclbjnk shows [ Ks, Kh ] two pairs, kings and twos.
Stripclbjnk wins $31.85 from side pot #1 with two pairs, kings and twos.
AtsionRd wins $34.75 from the main pot with two pairs, aces and twos.
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Muxy
Old 05-08-2006, 04:37 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripclubjunkie
***** Hand History for Game 4216333781 *****
$50 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, May 08, 11:46:19 ET 2006
Table Pomeranian (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: N3cromancer ( $59 )
Seat 3: Da_Mortician ( $69.72 )
Seat 7: AtsionRd ( $17.65 )
Seat 8: Dudanation ( $47.20 )
Seat 9: yeah6 ( $49.60 )
Seat 10: selasy ( $58.90 )
Seat 4: Stripclbjnk ( $49.50 )
Seat 6: wanwin ( $15.10 )
Seat 5: MrEltonJohn ( $48.25 )
Seat 1: Painter_ ( $49.50 )
wanwin posts small blind [$0.25].
AtsionRd posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Stripclbjnk [ Ks Kh ]
Dudanation folds.
yeah6 calls [$0.50].
selasy folds.
Painter_ folds.
N3cromancer folds.
Da_Mortician calls [$0.50].
Stripclbjnk raises [$3].
MrEltonJohn folds.
wanwin folds.
AtsionRd raises [$8].
yeah6 folds.
Da_Mortician folds.
Stripclbjnk is all-In [$46.50]
AtsionRd is all-In [$9.15]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4h, 2h, Td ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Jd ]
** Dealing River ** [ 2s ]
AtsionRd shows [ Ac, Ah ] two pairs, aces and twos.
Stripclbjnk shows [ Ks, Kh ] two pairs, kings and twos.
Stripclbjnk wins $31.85 from side pot #1 with two pairs, kings and twos.
AtsionRd wins $34.75 from the main pot with two pairs, aces and twos.
1-27 times man 1-27 times.
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gabe
Old 05-08-2006, 04:40 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildBobAA
There are so many guys at 50NL that will stick it in with TT-QQ/AK/AQ
i was going to say this
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Greedo017
Old 05-08-2006, 04:44 PM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabe
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildBobAA
There are so many guys at 50NL that will stick it in with TT-QQ/AK/AQ
i was going to say this
i find this to be untrue. got a few hands as examples? i think if you start going back through your hands where you got 3bet, you might find a couple where they didn't have aces, but the majority of the time, they do.

1 out of 27 times is totally irrelevant here.
i betcha that i got something you ain't got, that's called courage, it don't come from no liquor bottle, it ain't scotch
 
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gabe
Old 05-08-2006, 04:48 PM #16 (permalink)  
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i could find hands of people getting allin preflop at 600nl with AK and less, i know i could it at 50 and 100. i dont have pokertracker on this computer, but im sure someone else could post lots of hands of this happening.
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dalecooper
Old 05-08-2006, 05:37 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Bear in mind this is more specific than a guy going all in. He raised first, then when a limper re-raised him he 3-bet... and WITHOUT going all in. In fact it's a weakish 3-bet, just another $6 on top of hero's $4 re-raise. This doesn't scream AK/AQ/TT to me. Going all in here would be one thing, and calling all in yet another thing... this is different.
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theDEEPdish
Old 05-08-2006, 07:33 PM #18 (permalink)  
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I think in most situations ive come across 25 nl and 50 I"m usually praying for them to have KK here and only on friday do they have TT
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theDEEPdish
Old 05-08-2006, 07:34 PM #19 (permalink)  
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You guys have all just been out of the loop of small stakes for to long

psshh high rollers
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Stripclubjunkie
Old 05-08-2006, 07:46 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theDEEPdish
You guys have all just been out of the loop of small stakes for to long

psshh high rollers
I'm no high roller...
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thnwkd
Old 05-08-2006, 08:26 PM #21 (permalink)  
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thnwkd
Old 05-08-2006, 08:26 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildBobAA
I wouldn't start making this fold until you hit 200NL. There are so many guys at 50NL that will stick it in with TT-QQ/AK/AQ
I've folded KK twice so far @ 25nl to a 3 bet and both times villian showed down AA. I fold. If they are 3 betting with this range i will have their money in due time.
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sunfunbunch
Old 05-08-2006, 09:23 PM #23 (permalink)  
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I ran into a 'similar' hand two days ago.

This was 25nl 6max so keep that in mind. Everyone in this hand has about full stack sizes.

MP raises to 1.50 and CO calls.
I think and reriase to 7.5 (i REALLY wanted that cold caller to fold)

MP (the oringial raiser) shoves all his chip and the first caller folds.

I write "gammboool KK vs AA" and call his all in.

Guess what he had?
AQs.
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dalecooper
Old 05-08-2006, 09:35 PM #24 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunfunbunch
I ran into a 'similar' hand two days ago.

This was 25nl 6max so keep that in mind. Everyone in this hand has about full stack sizes.

MP raises to 1.50 and CO calls.
I think and reriase to 7.5 (i REALLY wanted that cold caller to fold)

MP (the oringial raiser) shoves all his chip and the first caller folds.

I write "gammboool KK vs AA" and call his all in.

Guess what he had?
AQs.
I don't want to come off too picky (or weak/tight) but there are some critical differences here. 1, it's 6-max. That's an incredibly different game than full ring, even at the same stakes and site. 2, again, the guy raised all-in - he didn't just 3-bet for less than his full stack. My buddy and I call that small re-raise the "please go all over my head bet" because that is its intended function most of the time. When you raise pre-flop and someone re-raises you by not much more than your raise, it's not because they're testing you - especially at low stakes. It's because they're ENCOURAGING you to put them all in. And when they do that, they usually have you beat.
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sunfunbunch
Old 05-08-2006, 11:02 PM #25 (permalink)  
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I agree, that's why I said "This was 25nl 6max so keep that in mind.".

My point was that it's not "always" AA.
I can see villian pulling the same move in my hand with AA as well, instead of reraising small.

If Hero would have raised preflop, he probably would have been raised preflop and lost anyhow with THAT flop.

Or villian just calls, and hero loses a good chunk anyhow.

Point taken though.. there are difference.

HERO said he accidentally limped:
How would this hand played if he had raised preflop (as he intended to do).
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KoRnholio
Old 05-08-2006, 11:05 PM #26 (permalink)  
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 I find that the typical 50NL player is quite passive pre-flop, only 3-betting a very tight range. Unless you have reason to think the guy 3-betting has a donkish streak, giving thought to folding wouldn't be a bad thing.

As played I would probably call and take a flop with it and see what happens.
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
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