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KK hand help please

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Buzz

03-16-2006, 07:53 AM Post subject: KK hand help please

#1 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Canberra, Australia

Posts: 112

KK hand, against villian who just joined table a few hands ago. What's the best play on the turn here?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB ($5.69)
BB ($3.95)
Hero ($5.11)
UTG+1 ($3.37)
MP1 ($5)
MP2 ($9.66)
CO ($12.27)
Button ($2.76)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K

, K

.
Hero raises to $0.3, 3 folds, CO calls $0.30, Button calls $0.30, SB raises to $0.55, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25.

Flop: ($2.25) 9

, 8

(4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.25, CO calls $1.25, Button folds, SB folds.

Turn: ($4.75) 3

(2 players)

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finky

03-16-2006, 08:01 AM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Oct 2005

Location: London

Posts: 270

Push. You have less than the pot in your stack, probably have the best hand and you really don't want to see another card.

I'd hit the flop harder as well, you know someones going to chase.

Demiparadigm

03-16-2006, 08:03 AM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Party 6 max

Posts: 1,602

Any bet just about pot commits you, and a check gives a free card on a draw heavy board, and allows villain to try to take the pot.
A push is bad because it allows Villain t oget away from a hand you are way ahead of, so you are really only called when you are beat.
So bet again, maybe half your stack, and call a raise expecting to lose.

Poker sucks sometimes. Notice how this happened from the preflop action. You raised 6xBB and got reraised holding KK. You then call, letting all the other players in, and bloating the pot.
By betting half the pot on the flop, you are leaving yourself with less in your stack than money in the pot. You are committed there, on the flop.
Since you are committed to the hand, your only goal is to get the rest of the money in the center and pray that you are still good.

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

Buzz

03-16-2006, 08:10 AM

#4 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Canberra, Australia

Posts: 112

Demi, just as I was mulling after my post I went back to the pre-flop play ...re-raise right there ... and risk the fact that SB could be re-raising with AA?

A beginner trying hard to learn not to be a donkey They say you should keep a journal so mine's online ... read here for a laugh!

Demiparadigm

03-16-2006, 08:40 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Posts: 1,602

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzz

Demi, just as I was mulling after my post I went back to the pre-flop play ...re-raise right there ... and risk the fact that SB could be re-raising with AA?

What if he is? Are you gonna fold on the flop if he bets? What if he has AK and will pay you off drawing to 3 outs? What if he has QQ, drawing to 2 outs? You can't fold. You may as well not worry about AA.
If he has AA, you rebuy. just like if CO has an 8 or 99, you rebuy. You don't play against "what ifs" in poker, you play against a range, and you dominate every hand in sb's range except AA.

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

SonOfAkira

03-16-2006, 08:43 AM

#6 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2006

Posts: 147

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzz

Demi, just as I was mulling after my post I went back to the pre-flop play ...re-raise right there ... and risk the fact that SB could be re-raising with AA?

I believe the math is, and there is a thread around here somewhere, that there is a 1 in 22.5 chance someone will be holding AA when you hold KK, so the odds are pretty good to play KK as aggresively as possible as it dominates or is a great favourite over every other hand.
The only exception would be if you have a specific read on this player, and this is his first raise in 1000 orbits. Though, even with players like that, you'll find them holding Axo or some other such thing, and even with this read, you can't lay down KK preflop.
So reraise preflop, possibly even push depending on the texture. If you reraise and he pushes, well, that changes the dynamic slightly, but you still can't laydown KK preflop.

Buzz

03-16-2006, 08:54 AM

#7 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Canberra, Australia

Posts: 112

OK good advice thanks.

For the record ... he had J8o. I'm amazed he calls both raises there ... I wonder if I had re-raised again whether he would have tossed it or thought he was in for that much already.

Anyway, irrespective of the individual result, good learning, so thanks.

A beginner trying hard to learn not to be a donkey They say you should keep a journal so mine's online ... read here for a laugh!

jackvance

03-16-2006, 02:41 PM

#8 (permalink)

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I'd just go AI if I get reraised with KK with a small stack. The odds are huge in my favor so I wanna make him pay the most to see the flop..

Sarcasm is your body's natural defense against stupidity

crikreef

03-16-2006, 03:11 PM

#9 (permalink)

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: San Diego

Posts: 64

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackvance

I'd just go AI if I get reraised with KK with a small stack. The odds are huge in my favor so I wanna make him pay the most to see the flop..

agreed. you need to just push AI preflop to try and protect against those junk hands and weak A's, especially on that low of a limit.

crikreef: called $1 for your gut shot? (in an $0.85 pot)
jankyspot: high roller
jankyspot: had a couple outs
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crikreef: ya
__________________________________________________ __________

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Rondavu

03-16-2006, 03:23 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by crikreef

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackvance

I'd just go AI if I get reraised with KK with a small stack. The odds are huge in my favor so I wanna make him pay the most to see the flop..

agreed. you need to just push AI preflop to try and protect against those junk hands and weak A's, especially on that low of a limit.

At these stakes you always just push KK before the flop if someone reraises you. Every time.

It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.

Fnord

03-16-2006, 03:27 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzz

For the record ... he had J8o. I'm amazed he calls both raises there ...

Don't be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzz

I wonder if I had re-raised again whether he would have tossed it or thought he was in for that much already.

Who cares. I do think it's important how you under-estimated the impact of letting him in when you're almost certain to stack off post-flop.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Renton

03-16-2006, 03:36 PM

#12 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Atlanta, GA, USA

Posts: 5,991

push to the reraise. You stand to win a decent pot even if everyone folds.

Fnord

03-16-2006, 03:39 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Renton

push to the reraise. You stand to win a decent pot even in everyone folds.

With big pairs, I have a "take the money and run" attitude. You'll be surprised at how often you'll get a terrible call when you try to shut people out of a pot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Buzz

03-16-2006, 06:36 PM

#14 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Jan 2006

Location: Canberra, Australia

Posts: 112

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzz

I wonder if I had re-raised again whether he would have tossed it or thought he was in for that much already.

Who cares. I do think it's important how you under-estimated the impact of letting him in when you're almost certain to stack off post-flop.

I see the point. Lesson learnt, thanks

Funny an hour or so later I played an SnG and ended up in a very similar scenario, this time I pushed. He called with JJ and hit J on the turn .... but at least I felt I went in with the best of it.

STIdrivr

03-16-2006, 07:15 PM

#15 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Southern california

Posts: 580

so buzz i think i read one of your post as you were scared to re raise pre flop cause the SB could have AA... but you still call and are willing to put all your chips in when no K comes... Just stick with the odds and unless you see a lot of raising pre flop most likely someone doesnt have AA unless they are a complete rock and keep re-raising you. You needed to re-raise in this spot with other people behind you expecially when they called a raise. You are giving them pretty good odds to come in with a drawing hand like J8s to try to take your stack, expecially at these stakes they will play anything for 30 cents.

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