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pgil
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09-24-2008, 03:46 PM
Post subject: KK hand, best play for getting maximum value.
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,103
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opp is aggressive and somewhat spewy at times. we have a fair amount of history because I like to float/3bet him a fair bit. This is the first time in a while he has called my 3bet.
With the small flop raise I have about a PSB left behind, and if I just call it, I am expecting him to move at the pot again. I intend to call/raise any and all turn cards. I expect him to have QQ/JJ/Tx a lot here. Is it better to just put it in on the flop and hope he calls, or do I let him commit himself entirely on the turn?
No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (8 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
UTG ($164.75)
UTG+1 ($170.25)
MP1 ($290.40)
MP2 ($544.90)
Hero (CO) ($219.10)
Button ($160.15)
SB ($209.40)
BB ($186)
Preflop: Hero is CO with K , K
3 folds, MP2 raises $6, Hero raises $18, 3 folds, MP2 calls $12
Flop: ($39) 10 , 8, 4 (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $25, MP2 raises $54, Hero...
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d0zer
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Moderator
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I'm always kinda torn in these spots cause raising on the flop makes it kinda obvious that you've got QQ+, but at the same time, there's TONS of turn cards you don't wanna see so I usually go the safe route, 3-bet him, then second-guess myself when he folds 
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pokerfan
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: NS, Canada
Posts: 1,736
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raise more preflop and bet more on the flop. As play, just flat call and shove over on the turn
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badgers
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Spewing
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preflop is fine sizing imo because if you're 3betting a wide range you don't need to worry about him getting setmining odds because you're paying off so much less postflop.
I just call and shove turn.
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3k post - Return of the blog!
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Keilah
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Northern BC, Canada
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+1
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pgil
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
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good to hear. I indeed called, and opp shoved the 9 on the turn.
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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jimmy44
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Place where I can spew
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
good to hear. I indeed called, and opp shoved the 9 on the turn.
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And you called?
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Being in position in this spot makes it better for calling on the flop and shipping the turn. If we were OOP i'd just get it in on the flop and if he out flops us then we run bad.
Although I wouldn't complain about making it 20 instead of 18 preflop and cbetting 29 instead of 24.
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pgil
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
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I instacalled, as was my plan, to call any and all turns.
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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jimmy44
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Place where I can spew
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Being in position in this spot makes it better for calling on the flop and shipping the turn. If we were OOP i'd just get it in on the flop and if he out flops us then we run bad.
Although I wouldn't complain about making it 20 instead of 18 preflop and cbetting 29 instead of 25.
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And I forgot this ^^
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
I instacalled, as was my plan, to call any and all turns.
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nh!
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pgil
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,103
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Although I wouldn't complain about making it 20 instead of 18 preflop and cbetting 29 instead of 24.
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I might have to start using that as my standard 3bet size. I used to do something similar at 100NL, which was make it 3x the opener + 1 bb.
Would the cbet be larger than 29 if I 3bet to 20, or are you suggesting 3bet to 20 then cbet 29?
I think I need to examine my bet sizing a little more closely overall, so this is as good a place to start as any.
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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jimmy44
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Place where I can spew
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Being in position in this spot makes it better for calling on the flop and shipping the turn. If we were OOP i'd just get it in on the flop and if he out flops us then we run bad.
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Why getting in on the flop? you'll not often get called by Tx? However, if we call. Pot will be $147 and then I think he would call a c/bomb 
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by jimmy44
Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Being in position in this spot makes it better for calling on the flop and shipping the turn. If we were OOP i'd just get it in on the flop and if he out flops us then we run bad.
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Why getting in on the flop? you'll not often get called by Tx? However, if we call. Pot will be $147 and then I think he would call a c/bomb |
I just have a real hard time putting a bare T in his range. Calling it OOP followed by a check/raise doesn't make much sense if he was going to fold. Once you call the C/R he (should) slow down and make his turn bet into the nuts/air and not marginal AT type hands.
But if he is spewy reg then I have no idea.
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pgil
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2005
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then he can also check behind with all of his draws/med strength hands and take his free card.
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"If you can't say f*ck, you can't say f*ck the government" - Lenny Bruce
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pgil
Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Although I wouldn't complain about making it 20 instead of 18 preflop and cbetting 29 instead of 24.
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I might have to start using that as my standard 3bet size. I used to do something similar at 100NL, which was make it 3x the opener + 1 bb.
Would the cbet be larger than 29 if I 3bet to 20, or are you suggesting 3bet to 20 then cbet 29?
I think I need to examine my bet sizing a little more closely overall, so this is as good a place to start as any. |
The difference between 20 and 18 isn't much, but it might persuade someone to make loose calls on you. $12 call looks a lot closer to 5% than $14 call does even though its only 1 BB.
Cbetting 29 into 43 is still pretty decent, once you break that $30 mark it has a psychological effect of being 3/4 pot (if that changes anything). 29 still seems weak (which is good) although 31 wouldn't be bad there either. The main reason to cbet 29 into 39 is you are trying to build the pot in the reraised pot and try to get it in. The $5 difference in this spot adds up to like $20-$30 by the river.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
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i'd 3-bet a little more preflop unless you are 3-betting him an extreme amount, 20 seems std
i'd shove flop because if he's raising for value he's not ever folding, but he may get a bad turn card and get away if u call. Also he's prob not gonna run a bunch of bluffs once his minraise gets called.
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wufwugy
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
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ditto with renton
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