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KK Fold to River Bet

  
 
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geoffm33
Old 12-05-2006, 05:01 PM     Post subject: KK Fold to River Bet #1 (permalink)  
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Just sat down so this is the first hand, no reads. I think my only mistake is the Flop bet. I should have potted it. May not have changed the outcome, but maybe gave Villain opportunity to push my of KK's?

Is this OK?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

SB ($31.50)
Hero ($25)
UTG ($25.60)
MP ($17.70)
CO ($23.25)
Button ($24.40)

Preflop: Hero is BB with , .
3 folds, Button calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1, Button calls $0.75.

Flop: ($2.10) , , (2 players)
Hero bets $1, Button calls $1.

Turn: ($4.10) (2 players)
Hero bets $2, Button raises to $4, Hero raises to $6, Button calls $2.

River: ($16.10) (2 players)
Hero bets $2, Button raises to $7, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $25.10
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AHiltz
Old 12-05-2006, 05:35 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Opp's min raise on the turn at 25NL SCREAMS set. It could also be Ace good/top kicker.

$2 on the river is weak, very weak. Either check/call, or put a real bet out there. $2 into a $14+ pot is just wrong.
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geoffm33
Old 12-05-2006, 05:41 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AHiltz
Opp's min raise on the turn at 25NL SCREAMS set. It could also be Ace good/top kicker.

$2 on the river is weak, very weak. Either check/call, or put a real bet out there. $2 into a $14+ pot is just wrong.
Good point, I didn't want to put any more money in the pot, but a check /fold or check/call would have been better.
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givememyleg
Old 12-05-2006, 06:22 PM #4 (permalink)  
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 Flop is debatable, I usually check here. I think the turn was the worst part of the hand.

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takesix
Old 12-05-2006, 06:31 PM     Post subject: Re: KK Fold to River Bet #5 (permalink)  
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Pot the flop. Checking is fine here too, but halfpot call could be diamonds for all you know.

Turn is baaad. Another halfpot which makes it lok like TPWK or maybe a diamond draw building the pot -- either way it doesn't look strong. Minraise wouldn't be MY play, but people are dumb and like to juice pots.

After the raise/reraise war on the turn, the river is pitiful and begging to be raised off with any two from someone paying attention. If you want your block bets to actually "block", you need to make them look call-able by semi-strong hands, not ridiculous (2 into 16? come on).
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griffey24
Old 12-05-2006, 06:47 PM     Post subject: not a fan.. #6 (permalink)  
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 Hmm.. I don't like this hand very much..

I would raise more preflop, you have a strong hand but there is 1 limper and you are OOP... raise that to 1.50.

Lead out strong on the flop.. for 3/4 to pot.. if you are still called, you need to re-evaluate..

Why re-raise the turn? You are just building the pot, OOP, and don't even beat top pair. If you think you might be ahead, re-raise STRONG to 12. Min-re-raising doesn't give him a chance to fold even. But I think I would just flat call his raise.

Check call the river bet for sure, or check fold even.
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geoffm33
Old 12-05-2006, 06:49 PM     Post subject: Re: KK Fold to River Bet #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takesix
Pot the flop. Checking is fine here too, but halfpot call could be diamonds for all you know.

Turn is baaad. Another halfpot which makes it lok like TPWK or maybe a diamond draw building the pot -- either way it doesn't look strong. Minraise wouldn't be MY play, but people are dumb and like to juice pots.

After the raise/reraise war on the turn, the river is pitiful and begging to be raised off with any two from someone paying attention. If you want your block bets to actually "block", you need to make them look call-able by semi-strong hands, not ridiculous (2 into 16? come on).
Good points, all. River play was terrible, I admit.
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zenbitz
Old 12-06-2006, 07:55 PM #8 (permalink)  
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This is an interesting hand.

I am a little torn between betting and checking the flop. Another "modest hand to sacrifice on the altar of position"???

On a rainbow flop, check/calling (perhaps even to river) is probably best (there is a thread on this), because betting only folds hands you beat at showdown, and very rarely folds an Ace (exceptions if villian is very weak and will fold TPNK, or if he never bluffs)

With the 2 diamonds, I am torn between betting (1/2 pot is fine - he might think he has implied odds, but you are not paying off, so calling with 2 diamonds is a mistake) flop and checking turn, or just check/calling (and obviously folding if a 3rd diamond hits)
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Pelion
Old 12-06-2006, 08:04 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Do you always make weak bets with weak hands?
Its impossible to know where you are in this hand since all your bets are so weak its perfectly reasonable for him to be raising any (missed) draw here. I think you are usually behind though. Make a stronger flop bet and shut down if called.
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Rondavu
Old 12-06-2006, 08:21 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Bet the flop hard, and re-evaluate the turn based on opponent. I would bet $1.50 on the flop.

The idea is that by displaying weakness with an unclear read (and a hard hand to release), after deciding to posture at the pot, you implicitly trap yourself for more money, because now you start thinking that villain is staying in the pot only because you displayed weakness.

Round and round we go, where your stack went nobody knows.

I have a saying that has worked well for me. "Represent, Confirm, Release". It refers to high pockets as played in MTT tournaments. Represent it preflop, Confirm your strength with the opponent on the flop, and release it if raised by a solid player on a dangerous board. I made it up one night after Apestyles drained my KK on a Q high flop holding QQQ. I had a solid image. I reraised him hard before the flop, and bet the flop strong. He went all in.
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geoffm33
Old 12-06-2006, 08:35 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
I have a saying that has worked well for me. "Represent, Confirm, Release". It refers to high pockets as played in MTT tournaments. Represent it preflop, Confirm your strength with the opponent on the flop, and release it if raised by a solid player on a dangerous board. I made it up one night after Apestyles drained my KK on a Q high flop holding QQQ. I had a solid image. I reraised him hard before the flop, and bet the flop strong. He went all in.
Thanks for the tip, I like this. And to answer all the other questions, yes I do bet weak, and I am now coming to that realization. I actually went months without evaluating my play and hitting these boards (and other educational exercises). I don't know how my game got like this!! All this constructive criticism helps. Thanks all.
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