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Warpe
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03-16-2006, 05:39 PM
Post subject: KK facing raise on paired flop
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#1 (permalink)
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Moderator
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CO just sat down...
Party Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
10 players
Converter
Stack sizes:
UTG: $52.10
Hero: $48.85
UTG+2: $29.12
MP1: $16.20
MP2: $49.85
MP3: $66.05
CO: $50
Button: $52.35
SB: $48.25
BB: $45.35
Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is UTG+1 with  
UTG folds, Hero raises to $2, 4 folds, CO calls $1.5, 3 folds.
Flop:    ($4.75, 2 players)
Hero bets $4, CO raises to $11, Hero ????
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bdawg56kg
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 1,201
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Either call the flop raise and c/c turn or CR turn. I don't see folding as an option here.
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Fnord
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Yeah, without a read this is a call. I think you got to commit to this one, although I get a sick feeling doing it. Trips usually smooth call, so the raise might actually be a good sign, but it really depends on the other guy.
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Warpe
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Join Date: Sep 2005
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Neither of you are recommending a reraise here? I really couldn't credit villain with an 8 here given his preflop raise call (unless he's got two of them), so I was thinking overpair (not AA) betting into a sans-paint flop. Why just call?
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Why just call?
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If we're ahead he's on 3 or fewer outs, hence giving up freebies isn't going to be a big deal. If his outs are Aces, we're not getting stacked.
If he's pretty much drawing dead, we want him to keep putting money into the pot.
If we're drawing to 2 outs, then we don't want to play for stacks.
Knowing his range, how often he'll raise and how often he'll follow through with worse hands on the turn (instead of check behind) are important. Without that information, I'm inclined to take this one a little slow to see what he's up to.
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Warpe
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Warpe
Why just call?
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If we're ahead he's on 3 or fewer outs, hence giving up freebies isn't going to be a big deal. If his outs are Aces, we're not getting stacked.
If he's pretty much drawing dead, we want him to keep putting money into the pot.
If we're drawing to 2 outs, then we don't want to play for stacks.
Knowing his range, how often he'll raise and how often he'll follow through with worse hands on the turn (instead of check behind) are important. Without that information, I'm inclined to take this one a little slow to see what he's up to. |
Okay, understood. I have to work on sitting on my tourney play tendencies some more methinks.
I pushed, he called and flipped over JJ. Turn was blank and I caught a K on the river to make my boat. Left him with $1.15.
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Renton
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlanta, GA, USA
Posts: 5,991
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I'd call this and continue betting out on the turn and river.
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Fnord
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Renton
I'd call this and continue betting out on the turn and river.
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Yeah, I'm torn between a small 3-bet, stop'n'go and donking the river. The no reads part hurts, although against a random I think we're in really good shape when he raises us.
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Fnord
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Hmmm... yeah... thinking this through some more... if he's got something like QQ-99ish then 3-betting to 20 and pushing the turn is a better line since there are a fair number of action killers on the turn.
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Warpe
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Hmmm... yeah... thinking this through some more... if he's got something like QQ-99ish then 3-betting to 20 and pushing the turn is a better line since there are a fair number of action killers on the turn.
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I like. I was really risking killing any further action with my push, I think, although when a villain doubles/triples me up I'm usually of a mind that they're ready to play for stacks. I'm actually mystified as to why he called. He didn't even tank.
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bdawg56kg
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 1,201
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Hmmm... yeah... thinking this through some more... if he's got something like QQ-99ish then 3-betting to 20 and pushing the turn is a better line since there are a fair number of action killers on the turn.
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If you 3-bet the flop, do you think villian really continues with QQ-99? I mean if he's that bad that he can't let go of an overpair here to a 3-bet, do you really think he stops putting money in the pot if he has TT and the turn is a J or Q?
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
If you 3-bet the flop, do you think villian really continues with QQ-99?
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Unknown full buy, I'd say the answer is sometimes.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
I mean if he's that bad that he can't let go of an overpair here to a 3-bet, do you really think he stops putting money in the pot if he has TT and the turn is a J or Q?
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I would certainly expect a check behind.
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bdawg56kg
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Honolulu
Posts: 1,201
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
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Originally Posted by bdawg56kg
I mean if he's that bad that he can't let go of an overpair here to a 3-bet, do you really think he stops putting money in the pot if he has TT and the turn is a J or Q?
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I would certainly expect a check behind. |
Yeah, but this type of player will almost certainly pay off a juicy value bet on the river, whereas if you 3-bet the flop there is a decent chance he drops his PP. The EV calculations might make it kinda close actually. Maybe I'm wrong to assume that a flop 3-bet folds out all worse hands a high percentage of the time at 50NL...
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Fnord
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It's more about the opponent than the stakes. Lots of players call a 3-bet there with a small over-pair in 100NL.
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Miffed22001
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jun 2005
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i would always like a 3 bet flop, but i like fnords line of calling here.
I like the effect of letting 99-QQ like this flop too much. Problem with that is such hands may very well get big on the turn, putting us on overs. I prefer maybe to advertise here rather than play more passivly.
so do we thus play for stacks if they do get big in the turn? and how do we avoid paying the 8 off (or 44 for that matter) which is a possibility if we start c/r'ing turns etc.
Im torn between 3 betting the flop for fold equity or making a lesser hand play a big pot dominated or calling and making the turn get big.
I'd prefer to make it big on the flop if its going that way, but thats my style.
So after that im still not happy 3 betting despite it being my typical line.
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